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Thread: Aa furlough

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    Aa furlough


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    But flow isnt gonna keep slowing right? I was told 5 years, and kooj said 6 month delay at maximum. What the hell?!

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    Looks like about what was projected. I recall discussing the future of AA late last year here and saying I thought furlough was unlikely barring something very serious and unforeseen and angled more towards a cessation of flow. Although the town crier attempted to drown me out with his pollyanna assumptions and baseless attacks, it turns out the worst case scenario is at hand. My condolences to all except one who are facing furlough and hopefully you prepared for this worst case scenario. Unfortunately, AA's problems look like they are just starting as I see little chance of paying down that debt within the time frame needed to do so, meaning it's likely to get worse before it gets better. Getting back to AA is just the start, but actually moving anywhere worthwhile once back is another question. The next bankruptcy will assuredly have major impact on the present contract and new outsourcing options will likely minimize the positive impact of future retirements.

    I think it prudent for all junior AA pilots to take a serious assessment of the value of committing to the bottom of that seniority list depending on what options become available. As for continuing to stick it out at an Eagle carrier, including Envoy, that too should be reevaluated if flowing to AA is or was your goal.

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    The actual total number of pilots to be furloughed was 2300. After awarding 522 Zero time lines and other mitigation measures a total of 1605 will be let go.

    The first 887 will be let go on October 1 with 2 additional groups being let go later in the year (one in November and one in December).

    If CARE's 2.0 passes they will hold off on furloughing any employees.

    There were Zero VEOPs (Voluntary Early Out Program) awarded. Apparently this is because a large portion of pilots who signed up where 64+ years of age and it didn't make economic sense. No deal was able to be hashed out on this program.

    All of the 824 will remain on property for the time being. Furloughs will be going back to August 2018.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdflyer View Post
    The actual total number of pilots to be furloughed was 2300. After awarding 522 Zero time lines and other mitigation measures a total of 1605 will be let go.

    The first 887 will be let go on October 1 with 2 additional groups being let go later in the year (one in November and one in December).

    If CARE's 2.0 passes they will hold off on furloughing any employees.

    There were Zero VEOPs (Voluntary Early Out Program) awarded. Apparently this is because a large portion of pilots who signed up where 64+ years of age and it didn't make economic sense. No deal was able to be hashed out on this program.

    All of the 824 will remain on property for the time being. Furloughs will be going back to August 2018.
    I think CARES 2.0 has a reasonable shot still and that would at least get everyone through the Winter. Without it, in addition to the furloughs, no doubt a displacement bid will be coming out meaning many who avoid the guillotine for now, will end up commuting. Commuting is no fun, especially if you end up on short call...but, it's a job. The outlook for significant recovery is now at least 3 years out and AA has a couple of billion in debt servicing due in that period with the remainder stretched out for about 7 years. The revenue picture with a much smaller carrier only gets worse as it's been proven you can't shrink to profitability. That means AA's debt hole only gets deeper and a more narrow window to make even more progress should they kick the can on that again.

    Long-term, AA is in a virtually untenable position without drastic moves. IF CARES 2.0 arrives, it's a critical opportunity to use that 6-month window to go into maximum savings and debt reduction mode as CARES won't solve AA's long-term issues.

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    Kimball Stone
    Senior Vice President - Flight Operations &
    Integrated Operations Center
    August 25, 2020
    Fellow pilots,
    This morning Doug Parker and Robert Isom outlined the next steps we must take as we face the reality that customer
    demand is not returning in the near term. We’ve spent the summer months determined to try and avoid, but preparing
    for this news, and designing a variety of options to minimize involuntary furloughs and separations in every
    department. Accounting for those accepting a voluntary program, we still have the heartbreaking task of involuntarily
    furloughing or separating approximately 19,000 people across the company on Oct. 1, unless there is an extension of
    the Payroll Support Program (PSP).
    Here in Flight, it’s been determined that we need to furlough a total of 1,605 pilots. Our Chief Pilots will soon begin
    notifying 887 pilots that they are being involuntarily furloughed on Oct. 1, with the balance of the furloughs occurring
    in November and December. This is the exact opposite of what any of us expected at the beginning of this year. Back in
    the April-May timeframe, it became apparent that even in a post-pandemic world that our industry would take a year
    or more to recover. Keeping true to our mission of taking care of our people and protecting our airline, we threw out
    the old playbook, and took on the fight on behalf of our pilots.
    So what did we do? We stopped hiring, taking a thoughtful approach to postpone plans of adding more than 1,000
    pilots to our team. We crafted and immediately offered short-term, long-term, and permanent leave options. In June,
    we began brainstorming ideas, including novel and innovative approaches to furlough mitigation, collaborating with the
    new APA negotiating team as soon as it was finalized in late July. These conversations resulted in three voluntary
    options designed to lessen the number of necessary furloughs. This required a lot of out-of-the box thinking, and
    creative and complex coordination. Some options worked well and others were less successful. Through it all, we were
    focused on taking care of each of you, doing everything possible to minimize furloughs, and continuing to run a safe
    and reliable operation.
    To offer a high-level summary, at the end of March, we had 15,710 pilots on the seniority list. We published the July
    2020 preliminary seniority list with a total of 14,908 pilots, which reflected the mandatory retirements and other
    changes that had taken place since April. At that point, we had 2,300 more pilots than necessary to fly the future
    schedule. We were able to offset that number through the variety of voluntary furlough mitigation and leave options
    negotiated with APA, including 522 zero-line awards to pilots who otherwise would have been furloughed. With all
    leaves counted, we were able to reduce the final involuntary furlough count to 1,605. I would like to thank all the pilots
    who bid for one of the voluntary leaves, mitigation options or stand-in-stead. You’ve not only helped our airline, you’ve
    helped a fellow pilot.
    I would be remiss if I didn’t address the collective effort that didn’t turn out as intended or have the desired result, the
    Voluntary Early Out Program (VEOP). The VEOP was envisioned with the intention of reaching those pilots who didn’t
    have the option of being considered for the VPLOA. We did not contemplate the high number of pilots with less than
    one year to retirement that bid for the VEOP, which not only negated the financial benefit of the VEOP, but in reality
    worsened the economic situation at a time where we can least afford additional expense. Unfortunately, this means we
    are unable to award any VEOPs. This is a disappointment as we all hoped that we could find a mutually acceptable
    solution with APA, and I believe there was opportunity to do things differently.
    For those who will be placed on furlough, this is clearly difficult news. Any attempt to offer words of encouragement
    right now doesn’t change your immediate situation. But I can commit to you that our efforts to restore public
    confidence and increase demand are fully aligned with our priority to recall each of you as soon as possible. You are
    part of our story. And it won’t be until we celebrate your return, with you in uniform and reporting for duty, that we
    can consider our mission as accomplished and our story a success.
    Respectfully,

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    Just curious, but didn't the company say 1600 way back before the CARES Act and the union concessions?
    _______________________________________________

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    Question, whether aa or at envoy, if you are furloughed during probation do you have recall rights?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Question, whether aa or at envoy, if you are furloughed during probation do you have recall rights?
    If the CBA hasn't changed, then even probationary Envoy pilots get recall rights. I can't see ALPO letting that go on any property.
    _______________________________________________

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    This is just the first wave folks .
    Buckle up

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    Just curious, but didn't the company say 1600 way back before the CARES Act and the union concessions?
    It was ballpark, between 14-1500 originally.

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    Sad, but not surprised to see some of the "have's" (for now) and the "have not's" sniping at each other over on APC. Some of those who signed up for AA assuming it would be all rainbows and unicorns are now getting a dose of the same reality thousands before them experienced and are demanding sacrifice to save them. Looks similar over on the UAL board as well. It's another facet of Airline history that they either didn't research or didn't care to because they thought it would be different for them. It's a seniority based business and when you are junior, you are more vulerable. Always has been, always will be.

    It's looking to be a long, cold winter for the Airline Industry, but it is an industry that has always been the first to catch cold when the economy sneezes. AA is looking especially shaky and I see nothing in the works to put a positive spin on that. Good luck to all, but 1.

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    You should look both ways before crossing the street. Guess mommy did not teach them that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Sad, but not surprised to see some of the "have's" (for now) and the "have not's" sniping at each other over on APC. Some of those who signed up for AA assuming it would be all rainbows and unicorns are now getting a dose of the same reality thousands before them experienced and are demanding sacrifice to save them. Looks similar over on the UAL board as well. It's another facet of Airline history that they either didn't research or didn't care to because they thought it would be different for them. It's a seniority based business and when you are junior, you are more vulerable. Always has been, always will be.

    It's looking to be a long, cold winter for the Airline Industry, but it is an industry that has always been the first to catch cold when the economy sneezes. AA is looking especially shaky and I see nothing in the works to put a positive spin on that. Good luck to all, but 1.
    Oh wow, no effing surprise here. Mr. Doomsdayer himself parroting out how correct he has been all along. Except, that you aren't. This is an unprecedented situation that NO airline has ever faced before and AA is doing a jam up job in redeploying assets and switching strategy when necessary. I would call this being very nimble and able to change quickly when required.

    I don't see anyone demanding anything. By the way, how do you feel about flowbacks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Oh wow, no effing surprise here. Mr. Doomsdayer himself parroting out how correct he has been all along. Except, that you aren't. This is an unprecedented situation that NO airline has ever faced before and AA is doing a jam up job in redeploying assets and switching strategy when necessary. I would call this being very nimble and able to change quickly when required.
    Your nightmare is still unfolding, Mr. Fake News.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    I don't see anyone demanding anything. By the way, how do you feel about flowbacks?
    Then you are blind, but we know that, Mr. “but 1”.

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    Flowback with preferential new hire position, with no seniority carryover for bidding, pay or retirement, after all our furloughs have returned on property first.
    It's called off street hire, I am good with that.
    Your flow through at as has no rights here at envoy, period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Flowback with preferential new hire position, with no seniority carryover for bidding, pay or retirement, after all our furloughs have returned on property first.
    It's called off street hire, I am good with that.
    Your flow through at as has no rights here at envoy, period.
    There is no provision for AA pilots to ”flowback” to Envoy, so why anyone is discussing it is beyond me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    There is no provision for AA pilots to ”flowback” to Envoy, so why anyone is discussing it is beyond me.
    I understand that. And I really don't care either way as AA/Envoy is one in the same. I have had some discussions among some of the more recent flows in the past weeks and there seems to be a lot of momentum for this which is the reason for putting this out there. Just can't quite understand why APA seems only focused on the top half of the list. Many are aware of my position at present but it looks like I'm going to HQ full time for at least for the foreseeable future. When the vaccine is released between OCT/DEC, I would expect a jump in travel with things only going up from there. Again, I've said this over the course of this year. AA is well positioned to be wildly successful as we gain momentum when the vaccine hits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Flowback with preferential new hire position, with no seniority carryover for bidding, pay or retirement, after all our furloughs have returned on property first.
    It's called off street hire, I am good with that.
    Your flow through at as has no rights here at envoy, period.

    What about flowback, if the flowthru is changed to also include your Envoy seniority? Restore the full 50% of each new hire position comes from Envoy.
    Flow over and never do a day of reserve, bid right into the left seat of something?
    APA gets some furlough protection; Envoy guys get the full 50% flow rate back, and flow with the seniority. Put a fence on certain fleet types if needed.
    There'd have to be something really good in it for envoy pilots to do something like that; they got burned by flowbacks and the lure of APA numbers. That won't happen again.
    I think in the short term it would suck, but over the long term could be a huge win.
    _______________________________________________

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