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Thread: To flow or not to flow

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    To flow or not to flow


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    For those that think SWA is a sweatshop, here is some data.

    2019 stats at SWA
    8 mo 3 year pay, 4 mo 4 year pay
    104 days of duty (122 paid duty)
    293 flights
    2.8 flights per day
    551 hours

    $177K which doesn't include the free health insurance, but does include 12 days in March in which I was out sick for rotator cuff surgery, and 6 other days sick in 2019.

    Please know that flow to AA may not be your best option.
    Last edited by RobertRoss; 02-01-2020 at 01:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertRoss View Post
    For those that think SWA is a sweatshop, here is some data.

    2019 stats at SWA
    8 mo 3 year pay, 4 mo 4 year pay
    104 days of duty (122 paid duty)
    293 flights
    2.8 flights per day
    551 hours

    $177K which doesn't include the free health insurance, but does include 12 days in March in which I was out sick for rotator cuff surgery, and 6 other days sick in 2019.

    Please know that flow to AA may not be your best option.
    There’s another aspect others should consider. It’s not exciting or sexy, but IS the foundation of the true value of all of the above. That is?

    Your employer’s financials. It’s the bedrock of your job security and without that, the value of what you make today carries little weight as to the value of the job unless it’s a stepping stone. Aside from the fact Envoy flows of 2020 will be mustering in to the back of a 15,000 pilot conga line, they will be concurrently losing HUGE amounts of seniority by getting a small fraction if slots going forward over the next few years. What that means is every year they wait up until they flow THOUSANDS of slots will be passing them by making their eventual movement to AA all the more potentially perilous considering where AA is financially and where it is at high risk of going. We are WAY past the normal cyclical point if financial contraction and timing now might be at its worst for flows to AA.

    No, Southwest doesn't have wide-bodies, but it has a better narrow body pay and QWL then AA and MUCH better job security at present.

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    Upgrade time at AA is less than 3 years on the 737/320 right now, with massive retirements looming. What is upgrade time at SWA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRaven View Post
    Upgrade time at AA is less than 3 years on the 737/320 right now, with massive retirements looming. What is upgrade time at SWA?
    BOOM! Home run Raven! High five as you trot through home plate. This dude has been having buyers remorse for leaving the security of the flow and lifetime career at AA. Now he's stuck at Southwest staring that 10 year upgrade in the face and thinking about what could have been. Baaaad move RobertRoss....baaaad move.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRaven View Post
    Upgrade time at AA is less than 3 years on the 737/320 right now, with massive retirements looming. What is upgrade time at SWA?
    A good question. But, to be more meaningful you need to quantify more data, such as the pay/QWL between two 3 year pilots at each carrier as a package. As for the factor of “massive retirements” at AA, that is an uncashed check of assumption. Considering AA’s precarious financial situation and the fact there will be little expansion as AA’s fleet for the most part will be stagnant, I don’t think that metric has much value until more predictable and stable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    BOOM! Home run Raven! High five as you trot through home plate. This dude has been having buyers remorse for leaving the security of the flow and lifetime career at AA. Now he's stuck at Southwest staring that 10 year upgrade in the face and thinking about what could have been. Baaaad move RobertRoss....baaaad move.
    WHIFF....... Swing and a miss for the DM (as usual).


    AA has a LOT of dire metrics that could easily make Southwest the winner in a career-oriented horserace. Let’s wait a couple or three years and revisit that. In fact, at this very moment, considering life under the AA pilots bankruptcy contract, the Southwest pilots lifestyle and treatment significantly surpasses that of the quasi-regional lifestyle of the average AA pilot. I’ll bet with pay and scheduling flexibility the 3-year Southwest F/O can approach or perhaps even surpass the 3-year junior LGA captain on reserve, especially with profit-sharing and all with FAR more control of their lifestyle.

    One area AA cannot hold a candle to Southwest and NEVER WILL, is treatment and culture. I’m afraid no matter what one’s W-2 looks like, for the pilot, AA will ALWAYS be the closest thing with Airbuses or Boeings to the commuters in the world of large airlines in the U.S. Currently, at leAAst #6 and almost certain to fall farther.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRaven View Post
    Upgrade time at AA is less than 3 years on the 737/320 right now, with massive retirements looming. What is upgrade time at SWA?
    With all due respect, the question should be, what was the upgrade time in AA, before the merger in 2013?

    2021 and more important ďthereafterĒ as per (blocked SEC fillings) will affect everybody...Mainline & Regional. Guys do your homework, get all facts...before you assume.

    Go Parker!!!!
    ďI always tell the truth. Even when I lie.Ē

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    With all due respect, the question should be, what was the upgrade time in AA, before the merger in 2013?

    2021 and more important “thereafter” as per (blocked SEC fillings) will affect everybody...Mainline & Regional. Guys do your homework, get all facts...before you assume.

    Go Parker!!!!
    Mason32's posts had more substance than yours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRaven View Post
    Upgrade time at AA is less than 3 years on the 737/320 right now, with massive retirements looming. What is upgrade time at SWA?
    8 years.

    I have no doubt that I will end up being around a 6 year upgrade in Dallas. 5-5.5 if not for this Max issue. My bet is that -73 upgrade in DFW isnít any better that that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    BOOM! Home run Raven! High five as you trot through home plate. This dude has been having buyers remorse for leaving the security of the flow and lifetime career at AA. Now he's stuck at Southwest staring that 10 year upgrade in the face and thinking about what could have been. Baaaad move RobertRoss....baaaad move.
    Dang, I could swear that you too had ďleft for greener pasturesĒ. Sometimes I forget that you donít say what you do or do what you say. Well I do, and I did.

    Careful not to strain you neck while looking up at our stock price.
    Last edited by RobertRoss; 02-01-2020 at 05:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertRoss View Post
    8 years.

    I have no doubt that I will end up being around a 6 year upgrade in Dallas. 5-5.5 if not for this Max issue. My bet is that -73 upgrade in DFW isnít any better that that.
    OMG! You don't give up do you brah? You seriously need a counselor to help you get past this PTSD from throwing your flow and career away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertRoss View Post
    Dang, I could swear that you too had ďleft for greener pasturesĒ. Sometimes I forget that you donít say what you do or do what you say. Well I do, and I did.
    I flowed through already dude. It don't get no better than this.

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    Then why are you here. You flowed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    I flowed through already dude. It don't get no better than this.
    Ohhh yeah I forgot. That 177 does include last years 11.8% profit sharing. What % did you get last year, I canít remember.

    Word is its going to be another 12.5% this year over here.

    Help me out. Is 12.5% more or less than 1.4%?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertRoss View Post
    Word is its going to be another 12.5% this year over here.
    It ended up being 12.2%. 6 weeks pay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertRoss View Post
    It ended up being 12.2%. 6 weeks pay.
    ok but to be correct itís not pay. 80% of it goes into your retirement fund. Not necessarily a bad thing but some may prefer the cash. Etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meatloaf View Post
    ok but to be correct itís not pay. 80% of it goes into your retirement fund. Not necessarily a bad thing but some may prefer the cash. Etc
    Thatís not correct at all. Pilots have voted to send 100% to a retirement fund, and thatís where it goes UNLESS the pilot has already maxed out their retirement funds contribution for the year ($56,000). Once that max is met, all additional can be taken in cash or deposited into an excess benefit fund.

    Iíll be getting about $3000 cash. The majority of pilots here meet the $56,000 threshold from their 401k election and company contribution. They will be getting 100% in cash or to their excess benefit fund.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertRoss View Post
    Thatís not correct at all. Pilots have voted to send 100% to a retirement fund, and thatís where it goes UNLESS the pilot has already maxed out their retirement funds contribution for the year ($56,000). Once that max is met, all additional can be taken in cash or deposited into an excess benefit fund.

    Iíll be getting about $3000 cash. The majority of pilots here meet the $56,000 threshold from their 401k election and company contribution. They will be getting 100% in cash or to their excess benefit fund.
    How do you meet your max by the payout date? That's a lot of self contribution no?

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    16% per 100k equals 16k.
    So how do you max out at 56k with only 16% company contribution. Best I see is 32k unless you are also putting 33% in, the math does not add up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    16% per 100k equals 16k.
    So how do you max out at 56k with only 16% company contribution. Best I see is 32k unless you are also putting 33% in, the math does not add up.
    And their profit sharing payout is on March 13th. So they have to be maxed out by that date...

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