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Thread: Eagle will compete for new flying, huh?

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    Eagle will compete for new flying, huh?


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    Woke up to this lovely article in the Chicago's Daily Herald. I think its time for AMR to crap or get off the pot.

    Either make us AA pilots now OR get rid of us so we can go fly for their competition.

    I think the dragging of their feet and the back and forth of Eagle being up for a divestiture is a clear sign we aren't going anywhere....but we all kinda knew that right? So bring us in and end this failed experiment you call the regional industry, because the way they run us now, we'll never be a worthwhile company. By the time they get around to divesting us (if they ever would), all the flying will be spoken for.

    I'm also convinced, much like our brothers and sisters at AA, we will soon have the oldest fleet in the industry. Soon the paxs won't just complain about how small the plane it, but also how old it is, as they look out the window at the brand new sparkling EMBs UAL has flying for them.
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    Unfortunately neither this management nor the new one will likely place the career interests of Eagle pilots as primary considerations in the future. The ultimate future for this carrier will likely be some new airframes but far less replacements will arrive then for those retired. 5 years from now, I'd plan for a 100-150 aircraft fleet based around the CRJ series 700/900. First more concessions will be necessary and whipsawing will achieve that. If you conservatively plan for that, all the rest of this stuff won't be as stressful and you won't be surprised or angry because you chose to go to the last chapter and already know the ending.

    Those who continue to expect expansion, a big order of new airframes very soon or contractual improvements are only keeping themselves imprisoned in frustration. Since no significant number of pilots are willing to do what is necessary, that being removing the current union leadership before they cement the companies final objectives upon the pilots, it's all but over. In reality, the top leadership at Eagle ALPA already considers themselves AA pilots and so they have little incentive to mount a massive fight for Eagle pilots careers when in effect, they've ready jumped off this foundering bucket. Nothing to do now but tread water and not rock the rescue boat whose lifeline is in the water and almost within reach,

    As for AA, up to 450 replacement aircraft are slated for the next 5 years and the option schedule is a available to replace older US Airways birds with possible expansion. In 5 years, all of the big 3 will have a fairly low fleet count of older aircraft.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-22-2013 at 08:43 AM.

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    I think its time for AMR to crap or get off the pot.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS

    I have been optimistic about a 230 airplane fleet, but I'm really starting to wonder.

    I talked to my Pops, who spent most of his career in the banking industry, about what's going on here. Having witnessed several of his banks failing over the years, he said the one thing they all had in common was managements unwillingness to deliver bad news. They keep dangling carrots while squeezing more and more, all the while knowing that, if they are truthful about the lack of future, the company will shut down quickily. Better to shrink it, while extracting what profit is left.

    We have no new aircraft or contracts, and they are already talking concessions. Definitely not good.

    If the company has yet to realize the benefits of our concessionary contract, it's too early to be giving more. PBS will save them millions, and we get no raises if they actually give us bigger planes.

    I'm totally against any further concessions, and I won't even read a list of demands unless its triggered by our butts in the seats of a bigger, growing fleet, and AA numbers for all. I'm talking aircraft parked at the gate with you an I setting up the FMS, and a spot on the AA list with ironclad language cementing our place and transfer rights.

    If not, in the words of Dick Cheney, "Go F yourself."
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    According to "FM3" AKA= USA Today...
    SKW has been awarded addl. E-175 flying for United, in addition to the 40 or so aircraft, SKW has secured many, many more than U-CAL has asked for to be used for "Future Flying" contracts.

    Artical
    From USA Today.
    "According to the Associated Press, SkyWest Inc. plans to buy 100 Embraer jets. Forty will be used under the United Express brand. The remaining 60 aircraft will be "considered conditional" until SkyWest enters agreements with major airlines to run their planes."
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEITH STONE View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS

    I have been optimistic about a 230 airplane fleet, but I'm really starting to wonder.

    I talked to my Pops, who spent most of his career in the banking industry, about what's going on here. Having witnessed several of his banks failing over the years, he said the one thing they all had in common was managements unwillingness to deliver bad news. They keep dangling carrots while squeezing more and more, all the while knowing that, if they are truthful about the lack of future, the company will shut down quickily. Better to shrink it, while extracting what profit is left.

    We have no new aircraft or contracts, and they are already talking concessions. Definitely not good.

    If the company has yet to realize the benefits of our concessionary contract, it's too early to be giving more. PBS will save them millions, and we get no raises if they actually give us bigger planes.

    I'm totally against any further concessions, and I won't even read a list of demands unless its triggered by our butts in the seats of a bigger, growing fleet, and AA numbers for all. I'm talking aircraft parked at the gate with you an I setting up the FMS, and a spot on the AA list with ironclad language cementing our place and transfer rights.

    If not, in the words of Dick Cheney, "Go F yourself."
    Valid assumptions by your pop, but I don't think "extracting profit" is their motive............at least not directly. I think a seamless replacement schedule is what they want regarding a substantial portion of the flying currently done here and mass exodus isn't condusive to THEIR goals (as opposed to the pilots). They have VERY attractive leases now on the remaining 50-seaters even in this operating environment and those aircraft have several more years of usefulness on many appropriate routes. What they need is time to decide HOW the remorphing of the feed will occur. As it stands now, if AA continues to hire they will have to steadily depleted this carriers pilots and coupled with outside attrition that is likely to be more than they can replace, so that threatens the role of this carrier in the fairly near term. That's a role that will be more complicated to replace before they may be ready. Again, the notion that whatever management out there "owes" the pilots a "plan" now or in the future, is thinking solely on the needs of a pilot and not on the realistic interests of a management NOT concerned with that. It's in their best interest to keep the situation fluid regarding this carrier at least till bankruptcy exit later this year and then likely whatever future is dangled or alluded to will be one tied to additional concessions whipsaw-stye. When you DO get that fleet offering, it's not likely to be a relief anyway as the ball and chain attached to it will only piss pilots off more.

    It may be best to accept this or start emulating Cheney now (just don't shoot your friend). If the realities aren't acceptable then the AA flow and/or another carrier seem to be the future. The hardest decisions will be those senior and let's face it........management WANTS those senior to flee, so what better way of doing that then to create an environment of uncertainty, fear and frustration ?

    It seems to be working as I've run into several former senior Eagle pilots who said they'd NEVER flow and have flipped completely. Heck, if a Chief Pilot bails to $40/hour that's a MAJOR red flag. The sobering reality is that this carrier will no longer be a "career" regional as that concept is dead. Soon, it will be just one of several outsourced contract operators set up as a preferred journeyman pathway for pilots. If you want to grow old here, I think it's simply best to accept the reality coming and be cool with that. Otherwise, it's just sentancing yourself to misery for the remainder of your career and it's not worth it. Soon, the "senior pilot" will be a 10-20% minority and the junior majority of youngsters don't give a rat's patoot about what happens to this carrier in the long-run, just the fastest way it can get THEM up and out and that's a BAD place for an older senior pilot to be defending themselves. Not only do you have incoming fire from your front (management), but actually the fatal shots to what's left of your career will likely hit you square in the back from your own troops.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-22-2013 at 10:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caravan-dvr View Post
    According to "FM3" AKA= USA Today...
    SKW has been awarded addl. E-175 flying for United, in addition to the 40 or so aircraft, SKW has secured many, many more than U-CAL has asked for to be used for "Future Flying" contracts.

    Artical
    From USA Today.
    "According to the Associated Press, SkyWest Inc. plans to buy 100 Embraer jets. Forty will be used under the United Express brand. The remaining 60 aircraft will be "considered conditional" until SkyWest enters agreements with major airlines to run their planes."
    I've talked at length to pilots flying E-175's (especially Shuttle) and BELIEVE ME, after 6 months the glamour that you THINK is there vaporizes. MOST of them sound like they don't like going to work all that much and have eyes elsewhere. Most of them are looking for the first exit and the E-175 doesn't open any more doors than a smaller Embraer or CRJ. I think it's a mistake to connect the solving of your career concerns with a bigger RJ or MORE bigger RJ's. If you're going to fly them for less compensation then now, soon you'll not only be right back where you are now in the disatisfaction department, but actually even worse because of unrealistic expectations of what the arrival of any such aircraft would bring.

    These planes WON'T be bringing you better compensation or QWL, just more profit for the operators at the expense of pilots flying more seats for less.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-22-2013 at 10:33 AM.

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    No... the reson for my post was --- Sky West has an additional 60 aircraft that are not commited to a carrier... so they say. i don't believe that SKW would agree to purchase 60 aircraft if they did not have work for them. Unless ALK is planning to expand, that really only leaves on carrier to utilize these airplanes... AA/US. Or am I being to pessimistick?

    IE: No growth for the current AMR Eagle, just more out-sourcing.
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    I think Sky West knows AA is in the market for larger feed, knows they intend to diversify and is hamstrung in their anility to order more large RJ's of their own due to their current Chapter 11 status. Sky West has secured the delivery slots so as to take advantage of the inevitable.

    Right now, this carrier is perhaps 90% of AA's feed, soon to be 70% with Republic. If the goal is perhaps 100-150 aircraft for this carrier and perhaps 1/3 of future AA feed, what would you expect to occur, be it Sky West or someone else ?

    In fact, If Sky West does place 60 E-175's in ops for AA replacing more of this carriers flying, it would be exactly what to expect and no surprise at all. Ultimately, this carrier has least 100 aircraft likely slated for replacement by others. None of this is or should be surprising to anyone. Clinging to an aircraft promise by another management known for their duplicity is naive. Your union was played by management and your union has been playing you.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-22-2013 at 11:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caravan-dvr View Post
    No growth for the current AMR Eagle, just more out-sourcing.
    "Your understanding of the system is correct."
    "No man's life, liberty, or property is safe, while Congress is in session." Mark Twain

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    You guys need to read the news and keep up with this.

    Is this us? No idea. But republic had to buy there own 175's. In the mean time I am saving money and looking for a job.

    Combined with an order for the American Airlines network, Embraer has booked 117 firm orders and 247 options and conditional orders with U.S. carriers this year.

    Read more: http://www.foxbusiness.com/news/2013...#ixzz2U3A92SvZ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    I've talked at length to pilots flying E-175's (especially Shuttle) and BELIEVE ME, after 6 months the glamour that you THINK is there vaporizes. MOST of them sound like they don't like going to work all that much and have eyes elsewhere. Most of them are looking for the first exit and the E-175 doesn't open any more doors than a smaller Embraer or CRJ. I think it's a mistake to connect the solving of your career concerns with a bigger RJ or MORE bigger RJ's. If you're going to fly them for less compensation then now, soon you'll not only be right back where you are now in the disatisfaction department, but actually even worse because of unrealistic expectations of what the arrival of any such aircraft would bring.
    B-b-b-but the engines are under the WING! They have bigger OVERHEAD BINS! They look like a real airliner! They HAVE to be more fun to fly! They HAVE to make their pilots more desireable to other carriers!

    Sorry, I just have a hard time believing you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mephesto View Post
    B-b-b-but the engines are under the WING! They have bigger OVERHEAD BINS! They look like a real airliner! They HAVE to be more fun to fly! They HAVE to make their pilots more desireable to other carriers!

    Sorry, I just have a hard time believing you.

    I understand. I've ridden the jumpseat of the E-175 multiple times on two different operators and it's a wider 145, but I had to sit sideways and it was excrutiating. I've ridden in the back too and although wider then the CRJ, it's still got the RJ "feel" (everything a flimsy lightweight plastic feel). The schedules they showed me were brutal and they are burned out. Heard nothing but complaining about the job and the companies. You see........apparently like a Ritz, soon it becomes "the same old cracker" and what's really left is pay and QWL. Those are poor at best and even the captains were asking about AA hiring. Just like flying on an RJ, the job and plane are tolerable, but not meant for long distances and times. 5-6 years and out. 15-30 years..........considering the future, either suck it up and accept it for what it is or move on.

    Besides, we ALL know pilots are wired for immediate gratification and essentially blind regarding the long term, thus the eye candy appeal of RJ's in the first place. That and pilots hopeless predictability and terminal apathy are why both managements and the unions take advantage of pilots day in and day out and always will. Once you get tired of playing with the toy, there has to be something else and the regional industry HAS nothing else. So, shiny toys it will be.............andthus the endless disappointment and frustration when the shine wears off.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-22-2013 at 03:02 PM.

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    Yeah, I know, I was just laying on the sarcasm really thick about the SJS crowd who thinks that the "E-Jets" are the bestest, neatest airplanes to roll off the line since the DC-3. I completely agree with what you said.

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    I asked my AA buddy, who's in Airbus school, what he thought of the new plane. His reply, "It's an airplane, who gives a sh!t. I'm gonna have weekends off!"

    He gets it.
    Always smooth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KEITH STONE View Post
    I asked my AA buddy, who's in Airbus school, what he thought of the new plane. His reply, "It's an airplane, who gives a sh!t. I'm gonna have weekends off!"

    He gets it.
    Yup. A new airplane is always fun for awhile, but sooner or later, compensation and control over your life re-emerge as the primary considerations. Checking out in large transport-catagory jets (mainline size) has been a hoot for me, but after about a year of flying a specific jet, the glow wears off. I'm back to studying a bid sheet for maximum days off for a reasonable check. Having to bust my chops 90 hours a month to make less money than now and bouncing around to places like Little Rock, Ft. Wayne or Des Moines (for the rest of my days) being picked apart by crew scheduling because my union leadership sold me out would be torture. Had I stayed at Eagle, I'd have left anyway by next year if AA wasn't an option. Life is just too short...........

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    Great for your buddy in school... has nothing to do with this forum. Though, I will give credit to --- "It's just an airplane" and that would indicate he / we should not care what we fly... so long as we get paid for what are responble for.

    That said, regional pay tops out at ?? $100 / hour for 65 seats = 1.53 / hour. so a 747 with 400 would equal $ 612 --- I don't think that is going to happen. I have no idea what a senior CA on a 74 makes... but would love to find out some day.

    My point...they (State your company name here) will nickle & dime everything so long as we allow it. Given our current Union and the lack of input and support from the pilot group, (I am guilty) it would not be a suprise if we are in th same pay scale as an ameriflight F/O when all is said and done.
    We will be the example... just as Comair was in 2000 --- they fought hard... and won - for 10 years, now they are gone, and Delte just bought another regional.

    What can we do at EGL?

    Fly our contract - I did my sequence, you extended me once - I am tired... I am sorry, I don't feel it safe to do more than 5 legs per day... No fatigue, not refusing, I just don't feel it safe.

    If you get a MA... in my case... forward it to BIG BROTHER - FAA.GOV - copy them in you de-brief. ------- One of the reasons we get an employee number is because they don't know our names, when we are fired!

    JOB ACTION --- NO! Nobody wins on that front, however, if asked to do, or are assigned something out of the norm... just say no!

    Problems down the road? Can't answer that... maybe Beagle could pipe in as far as attendance issues.
    An adventure is never fun while it is happeniing.

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    Great for your buddy in school... has nothing to do with this forum. Though, I will give credit to --- "It's just an airplane" and that would indicate he / we should not care what we fly... so long as we get paid for what are responble for.
    That was my response to the SJS comments from others. It's part of the reason we are losing the newhire game with Relublic, and how they're going to be successful in staffing what is taken from us.

    Sorry you couldn't follow the thread.
    Always smooth.

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    Follow --- oh brother...
    No slam was intendend... point was that no matter what we fly, we have to be uniform... Nothing personal was ever intended, i am sorry if taken the wrong way.
    An adventure is never fun while it is happeniing.

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    Given our current group... the lack of uniform is something that the company (companies) will continue to play.
    Solution! --- I have none. Unfortunatley, we have some VERY, VERY, in-experienced pilots --- both in aviation and industry knowledge --- they do not or refuse to know the difference between job security and industry know how.

    Please don't take this the wrong way, however, --- I do not want an recent grad from an aeronautical school with 2,000 FT flying me or my family around for $65 / hour.

    There is something to be said about... 135 experience --- Alaska time / Pacific NW time...

    I flew Ak for 20 years...(Long story short...Wife) I have been here for 12 years... this is the easiest job I have ever had, to reduce me as a CA to Min wage --- well sorry folk, you are going to loose a good pilot... I'll drive!
    An adventure is never fun while it is happeniing.

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