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Thread: Big AA Announcement

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Well your "vibes" are wrong. The proposals so far look good. And cry me a river. You are having to work. Boo boo. I'm on the same reserve system and have no complaints. Guess you took that old Eagle complain about everything mentality with you when you flowed. You and BB should get a room.
    Aw man, that hurts..I'm pretty far from a "complainer". I'm happy to say I was part of the real American Eagle, and American Airlines, this new airline that is American in name only, not so much. I'm tired of making PA's that start with "We're sorry", or "I apologize for".

    You know what reserves are supposed to be for, right? You know, like in RESERVE, in case of unforeseen operational issues, not to cover the day to day operation.

    Think of reserves like the guys who's moms don't get them to the reenactment until after the show starts. They are supposed to hang out in the parking lot, until the guy who plays the hand job character gets a wrist sprain or something, then they step in and cover for him.

    Back to the contract, I'd also love for you to enlighten me with what kinds of great gains we can expect. I've spoken to my reps, and they certainly have a different opinion than you do. If you think some minor extra pay, or a sub standard profit sharing offer is going to sway this pilot group, you need to get out more. I don't know anyone who would be willing to accept any concessions to our already pathetic work rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nimslow View Post
    Aw man, that hurts..I'm pretty far from a "complainer". I'm happy to say I was part of the real American Eagle, and American Airlines, this new airline that is American in name only, not so much. I'm tired of making PA's that start with "We're sorry", or "I apologize for".

    You know what reserves are supposed to be for, right? You know, like in RESERVE, in case of unforeseen operational issues, not to cover the day to day operation.

    Think of reserves like the guys who's moms don't get them to the reenactment until after the show starts. They are supposed to hang out in the parking lot, until the guy who plays the hand job character gets a wrist sprain or something, then they step in and cover for him.

    Back to the contract, I'd also love for you to enlighten me with what kinds of great gains we can expect. I've spoken to my reps, and they certainly have a different opinion than you do. If you think some minor extra pay, or a sub standard profit sharing offer is going to sway this pilot group, you need to get out more. I don't know anyone who would be willing to accept any concessions to our already pathetic work rules.
    We are just going to have to disagree. The "Old" American Eagle didn't have the flow as we have it now. The "New" Envoy is far superior in many aspects as well as the new AA that has arrived which is far superior to the "Old" AA. Much classier overall look, better management and a TRUE flow from Envoy to AA that is simply a departmental transfer.

    Great gains? So what did YOUR rep say? I find some good things from what I've been told by a rep and certain management. So, extra pay isn't a good thing huh? Profit sharing increases bad too? That's what I'm getting. I'm on reserve now as well and have zero problems with the system. After all, we are here to "move the metal" right? What's so bad about having a few guys sitting at the airport and getting PAID to do so? Can't figure that one out. Envoy does it and it works really good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    We are just going to have to disagree. The "Old" American Eagle didn't have the flow as we have it now. The "New" Envoy is far superior in many aspects as well as the new AA that has arrived which is far superior to the "Old" AA. Much classier overall look, better management and a TRUE flow from Envoy to AA that is simply a departmental transfer.
    The "old" flow at least gave a pilot AA seniority and no probation. The new AA is superior. Sorry, I was on property for both and aside from pay rates, the "old" AA QWL was vastly superior to the present "Mega-Envoy" they have turned it into.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Great gains? So what did YOUR rep say? I find some good things from what I've been told by a rep and certain management. So, extra pay isn't a good thing huh? Profit sharing increases bad too? That's what I'm getting. I'm on reserve now as well and have zero problems with the system. After all, we are here to "move the metal" right? What's so bad about having a few guys sitting at the airport and getting PAID to do so? Can't figure that one out. Envoy does it and it works really good.
    I have little doubt management would say whatever they are peddling is good. After all, that's just like you. You're a management wannabe looking to grease your way up the ranks and you couldn't care less how many line pilots are stacked up underneath you to get you there. Again folks, CLEARLY a pseudo-management troll here looking to corrupt a few more minds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    The "old" flow at least gave a pilot AA seniority and no probation. The new AA is superior. Sorry, I was on property for both and aside from pay rates, the "old" AA QWL was vastly superior to the present "Mega-Envoy" they have turned it into.



    I have little doubt management would say whatever they are peddling is good. After all, that's just like you. You're a management wannabe looking to grease your way up the ranks and you couldn't care less how many line pilots are stacked up underneath you to get you there. Again folks, CLEARLY a pseudo-management troll here looking to corrupt a few more minds.
    Sorry. You couldn't be more wrong. Care to explain how the OLD AA is better than the new? You won't be able to provide examples as there aren't any. The new AA blows the old away. One big way is the seamless integration of all aspects of Envoy into AA including the pilots and the industry cutting edge flow that is offered. Being able to offer a brand new hire their first 121 job as an AA pilot from Day One is far, far superior to the trickle carrot that was offered at the old AA. On that alone, I could rest my case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Sorry. You couldn't be more wrong. Care to explain how the OLD AA is better than the new? You won't be able to provide examples as there aren't any. The new AA blows the old away. One big way is the seamless integration of all aspects of Envoy into AA including the pilots and the industry cutting edge flow that is offered. Being able to offer a brand new hire their first 121 job as an AA pilot from Day One is far, far superior to the trickle carrot that was offered at the old AA. On that alone, I could rest my case.
    …..and you'd only win in the Kangaroo court of your delusional mind. Pre BK/Merger AA QWL was vastly superior to present. I know, I've experienced both while you on the other hand did not. Hey ! That rounds me back to one of your all too frequent claims, so how would you know ?

    YOU NEVER WORKED THERE !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    We are just going to have to disagree. The "Old" American Eagle didn't have the flow as we have it now. The "New" Envoy is far superior in many aspects as well as the new AA that has arrived which is far superior to the "Old" AA. Much classier overall look, better management and a TRUE flow from Envoy to AA that is simply a departmental transfer.
    Well, the old Eagle had a far superior flow, it had supp W / L3 with AA-APA-ALPA-AE. CA’s got AA pilot seniority numbers upon upgrading at Eagle. They flowed at 50% of every AA new hire position, and when AMR pulled their usual contract BS it cost them 824 more CA. 9-11 caused a decade of stagnation, but if you think the current 29, 25 a month beats 50% then you are delusional.

    Even the subsequent AMR flow was better. It did not require spotless personnel records or no letters on file. It didn’t require a pilot to upgrade first in order to flow either.
    Last edited by Cujo665; 08-11-2019 at 07:01 PM.
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    Boom!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Sorry. You couldn't be more wrong. Care to explain how the OLD AA is better than the new? You won't be able to provide examples as there aren't any. The new AA blows the old away. One big way is the seamless integration of all aspects of Envoy into AA including the pilots and the industry cutting edge flow that is offered. Being able to offer a brand new hire their first 121 job as an AA pilot from Day One is far, far superior to the trickle carrot that was offered at the old AA. On that alone, I could rest my case.
    Old AA Better
    *No hocking CC’s every flight
    *No overselling every flight causing customers to sit for flights later then they book.
    *First class that wasn’t miserly on everything
    *Better international meals
    *Better international wine selection
    *Larger seat pitch
    *More padding on seat
    *Seats actually reclined

    This is just from a passengers perspective…
    Would you like me to go on?

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    The only requirement to flow should be a test to see if one can shoot a visual approach with no additional guidance. The 175 guys can’t use auto throttles either.

    If you get mad at this please post your employee number so I know which flights to not deadhead or commute on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nygiants View Post
    The only requirement to flow should be a test to see if one can shoot a visual approach with no additional guidance. The 175 guys can’t use auto throttles either.

    If you get mad at this please post your employee number so I know which flights to not deadhead or commute on.
    Half these retards don't work at envoy. The same few names just enjoy their daily circle jerk with dacuj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by v1rotate View Post
    Half these retards don't work at envoy. The same few names just enjoy their daily circle jerk with dacuj.
    I understand you defending your chum Dacuj, but you are an equally worthy imbecile to him for failing to acknowledge that he instigates much of the conflict, thus is all too frequently the first to whip it out. I've lost count of the number of posts I've made that have not been directed at him or having anything to do with him, yet he plows right in proclaiming himself to be John Holmes.

    Your obvious bias destroys your credibility...….but, we previously established that, so nothing new here.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 08-12-2019 at 01:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Twitter announcement today folks. Meanwhile AA stock surging in the pre market.
    AA stock nearing the 52 week low today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    I understand you defending your chum Dacuj, but you are an equally worthy imbecile to him for failing to acknowledge that he instigates much of the conflict, thus is all too frequently the first to whip it out. I've lost count of the number of posts I've made that have not been directed at him or having anything to do with him, yet he plows right in proclaiming himself to be John Holmes.

    Your obvious bias destroys your credibility...….but, we previously established that, so nothing new here.
    My chum. Haha youre right. You caught me...fkn idiot. I dont need credibility, everyone knows you cant lie in the internet. To be fair i cant stand any of you. I just like to show up and offer nothing productive occasionally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by v1rotate View Post
    I just like to show up and offer nothing productive occasionally.
    Well, congratulations then. You’ve obviously found your niche in life. Like Harry said, a man has got to know his limitations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Well, congratulations then. You’ve obviously found your niche in life. Like Harry said, a man has got to know his limitations.
    Haha i find myself being very self aware

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    Quote Originally Posted by v1rotate View Post
    Haha i find myself being very self aware
    That a euphemism for a morning “choke of the chain?”

    You clearly have no credibility. Now...go get some whiskey and start guzzling.

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    Not sure where this guy get his news but it seems Airport Ready was never mentioned

    “Hi Guys, John Dwyer here, hope all is well. I’m writing to you today to discuss some potential issues developing in negotiations with the APA. It’s no secret that Parker wants Ready-Reserves on Airport Standby and hard call-out times, and it’s also no secret that line-holders don’t like the current Reassignment rules of their awarded trips. “


    Negotiating Update

    On Aug. 6, the management negotiating team presented to APA’s Negotiating Committee what they titled “Company’s Comprehensive Proposal.”

    However, at only two-and-one-quarter pages long — including a one-and-one-quarter page attachment that listed 11 one-line bullet point Operational Concepts and a handful of Operational Modifications — the proposal is not “comprehensive” and is more akin to a general Section 6 opener.

    The timing of the proposal was a bit surprising, because the management team consistently had told your Negotiating Committee they would not make any proposals or counterproposals related to economic items until they saw APA’s entire “ask.”

    The economic elements of management’s proposal include:

    Pay
    Profit Sharing
    Quality of Work Life
    Duration
    Here is a summary of the economic elements:

    Pay:

    The management proposal includes a date-of-signing (DOS) raise of 4% and assumes the contract will be effective 1/1/20.
    Management described the initial 4% DOS raise as a 1% increase to close the 1% gap between AA and Delta pilot pay rates, plus an additional 3% increase.
    3% raises on each Jan. 1 from 2021 through 2024.
    Profit Sharing:

    Management has proposed a profit sharing plan with terms they claim are at parity with the Delta profit sharing plan as contained in the ALPA-Delta contract.
    Quality of Work Life:

    Management has lumped all other contract improvements into this broad category — including LTD, benefits, scheduling, work rules, vacation, sick leave, holidays, hotels or “other areas of APA’s interest” and proposed to limit these improvements to no more than $150m per contract year.
    Duration:

    5 years
    Our preliminary assessment of this opening proposal is as follows:

    Pay
    The management proposal is a standard opening proposal on pay rates. Annual raises of 3% are relatively typical in more established (versus ultra-low-cost carrier or newly organized) pilot contracts. However, some contracts — such as the 2016 Delta contract — include raises above 3% for certain effective dates. The bigger issue is the DOS raise of 4%, and the fact that management did not address the growing issue of equipment-specific pay — to more effectively capture the productivity of our current and future fleet — versus our current group pay.

    Profit Sharing
    By proposing a Delta-like profit-sharing plan, the Company has addressed one of APA’s pilot compensation priorities. The Delta plan is the best in the industry. It contributes 10% of all pre-tax profits under $2.5b and 20% of all pre-tax profits above $2.5b into a profit-sharing pool and allocates bonus payments to all eligible airline employees.

    However, in order to be competitive and be Delta-like, any new plan must be configured differently than the current AAG profit-sharing plan. The current plan pays to all 140,000+ employees at American and the AAG wholly-owned subsidiaries. Delta’s plan is limited to mainline employees — the sharing pool is smaller, which drives the share per person higher. Moreover, we all need to recognize that having Delta’s profit-sharing plan does not equate to receiving Delta profit-sharing payments as a percentage of pay. American has recorded smaller profits than Delta during the past several years and will need to make necessary additional investments in its employees, operations, and product to get back to industry-leading profit margins.

    Quality of Work Life
    Management’s “plug” to cap the cost of all remaining items in the contract to $150m is unacceptable. First, such an amount of money is wholly inadequate to address the list of necessary QWL, benefit, and contract repair issues, many of which were created prior to, in, or coming out of bankruptcy. Second, we will not be constrained by an artificial and outmoded bankruptcy and merger strategy. APA has seen this play from this management team before, such as the $87m per year in modifications APA was limited to in negotiating the terms of the 2013 Merger Transition Agreement under the Memorandum of Understanding arising out of the merger.

    Duration
    Contrary to management’s claims, a five-year contract is not industry standard. APA has yet to make a proposal on duration, which will ultimately be based on a variety of factors, including the terms and enhancements in the new contract, expectations regarding the economy and the airline, and where our peers are in negotiations.

    Management’s proposal is exactly what APA predicted — a “shiny object” money-only proposal. This and other airline management teams have tried this tactic in the past as a method to effectively go around the Negotiating Committee and appeal directly to the pilots with the hope to have members put pressure on their union to move quickly to a deal. Happily, we can report that this tactic failed; we appreciate your response to our initial communications last Thursday and your overwhelming support for the Negotiating Committee to stay focused on our proposals and continue to move forward with our current plan.

    In addition to the economic elements, management proposed to explore modifications to certain operational “concepts to provide pilots with more flexibility and ensure the Company’s efficiencies.” Again, this approach is more reminiscent of an initial opener and includes general concepts. This management tactic is also designed to create hesitation and confusion within the pilot group and promote misinformation or improper assumptions. One rumor going around that can be killed right now is “airport ready reserve.” Management did not propose it, and APA will not accept it.

    Management’s list of concepts and areas of modification included:

    Administrative or minor modifications, such as:

    Combine short-term and long-term sick leave banks.
    Address regulatory requirements.
    Remedy existing inconsistencies that exist in current contract language.
    Issues that could be beneficial to pilots, such as:

    Variable premium options.
    Agreement to not change “leg” to “sequence” Section 3.C.1.a., which would eliminate the unimplemented ability for management to pay a pilot for the lesser of underfly or scheduled.
    Increase recording retention for Crew Scheduling calls (beneficial to both parties in resolving hearings and grievances).
    Several non-starters, such as:

    Ability to block trips for CKA proficiency flying and consolidation.
    Modify IMAX Retrospective Faction for Group I when they transition to a higher a/c group.
    All pilots must check schedule for next assignment at end of debrief.
    No timeframe for implementation of most contractual provisions other than the “earliest practicable time” — which is language management has previously used and continues to use to delay implementation of already negotiated terms, such as DOTC/RAS.
    The APA Negotiating Committee continues with our plan to put all of our detailed, well-thought-out initial proposals on the table by the end of August. We will then proceed to engage with management’s negotiating team in negotiating terms for a new contract that meets the priorities of our members:

    Improve Scheduling, Company Transparency and Accountability, and Quality of Work Life
    Achieve Industry-Leading Hourly Pay Rates and Address Gaps in Compensation and Benefits with Peers
    Undertake Contract Repair, With a Focus On Items That Were Lost in Bankruptcy
    It’s Time.

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    Aug. 2019 Update:


    Since July 2014, AAG’s Board of Directors has approved 7 share repurchase programs aggregating $13.0 billion of authority. As of 3/31/19, there was $1.1 billion of remaining authority to repurchase shares under the current $2.0 billion share repurchase program.

    Since the inception of AAG’s share repurchase programs in July 2014 through 3/31/19, AAG repurchased 295.6 million shares of AAG common stock for $11.9 billion at a weighted average cost per share of $40.43. (Source: Q2 2019 10-Q filing).


    The “cost” of this share repurchase program as of 8/15/2019 based on AAL trading at $25.41/share (closing price quote): Approximately $4.4 Billion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowHand View Post
    Aug. 2019 Update:


    Since July 2014, AAG’s Board of Directors has approved 7 share repurchase programs aggregating $13.0 billion of authority. As of 3/31/19, there was $1.1 billion of remaining authority to repurchase shares under the current $2.0 billion share repurchase program.

    Since the inception of AAG’s share repurchase programs in July 2014 through 3/31/19, AAG repurchased 295.6 million shares of AAG common stock for $11.9 billion at a weighted average cost per share of $40.43. (Source: Q2 2019 10-Q filing).


    The “cost” of this share repurchase program as of 8/15/2019 based on AAL trading at $25.41/share (closing price quote): Approximately $4.4 Billion.
    “... and the fact that management did not address the growing issue of equipment-specific pay — to more effectively capture the productivity of our current and future fleet...

    ~John Dwyer ~


    2021 & thereafter affects EVERYBODY, but will hurt Envoy Pilots the most. Tic, Toc...

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    Negotiating Update

    On Aug. 6, the management negotiating team presented to APA’s Negotiating Committee what they titled “Company’s Comprehensive Proposal.”
    However, at only two-and-one-quarter pages long — including a one-and-one-quarter page attachment that listed 11 one-line bullet point Operational Concepts and a handful of Operational Modifications — the proposal is not “comprehensive” and is more akin to a general Section 6 opener.
    The timing of the proposal was a bit surprising, because the management team consistently had told your Negotiating Committee they would not make any proposals or counterproposals related to economic items until they saw APA’s entire “ask.”
    The economic elements of management’s proposal include:

    • Pay
    • Profit Sharing
    • Quality of Work Life
    • Duration

    Here is a summary of the economic elements:
    Pay:

    • The management proposal includes a date-of-signing (DOS) raise of 4% and assumes the contract will be effective 1/1/20.
    • Management described the initial 4% DOS raise as a 1% increase to close the 1% gap between AA and Delta pilot pay rates, plus an additional 3% increase.
    • 3% raises on each Jan. 1 from 2021 through 2024.

    Profit Sharing:

    • Management has proposed a profit sharing plan with terms they claim are at parity with the Delta profit sharing plan as contained in the ALPA-Delta contract.

    Quality of Work Life:

    • Management has lumped all other contract improvements into this broad category — including LTD, benefits, scheduling, work rules, vacation, sick leave, holidays, hotels or “other areas of APA’s interest” and proposed to limit these improvements to no more than $150m per contract year.

    Duration:

    • 5 years

    Our preliminary assessment of this opening proposal is as follows:
    Pay
    The management proposal is a standard opening proposal on pay rates. Annual raises of 3% are relatively typical in more established (versus ultra-low-cost carrier or newly organized) pilot contracts. However, some contracts — such as the 2016 Delta contract — include raises above 3% for certain effective dates. The bigger issue is the DOS raise of 4%, and the fact that management did not address the growing issue of equipment-specific pay — to more effectively capture the productivity of our current and future fleet — versus our current group pay.

    Profit Sharing
    By proposing a Delta-like profit-sharing plan, the Company has addressed one of APA’s pilot compensation priorities. The Delta plan is the best in the industry. It contributes 10% of all pre-tax profits under $2.5b and 20% of all pre-tax profits above $2.5b into a profit-sharing pool and allocates bonus payments to all eligible airline employees.

    However, in order to be competitive and be Delta-like, any new plan must be configured differently than the current AAG profit-sharing plan. The current plan pays to all 140,000+ employees at American and the AAG wholly-owned subsidiaries. Delta’s plan is limited to mainline employees — the sharing pool is smaller, which drives the share per person higher. Moreover, we all need to recognize that having Delta’s profit-sharing plan does not equate to receiving Delta profit-sharing payments as a percentage of pay. American has recorded smaller profits than Delta during the past several years and will need to make necessary additional investments in its employees, operations, and product to get back to industry-leading profit margins.
    Quality of Work Life
    Management’s “plug” to cap the cost of all remaining items in the contract to $150m is unacceptable. First, such an amount of money is wholly inadequate to address the list of necessary QWL, benefit, and contract repair issues, many of which were created prior to, in, or coming out of bankruptcy. Second, we will not be constrained by an artificial and outmoded bankruptcy and merger strategy. APA has seen this play from this management team before, such as the $87m per year in modifications APA was limited to in negotiating the terms of the 2013 Merger Transition Agreement under the Memorandum of Understanding arising out of the merger.

    Duration
    Contrary to management’s claims, a five-year contract is not industry standard. APA has yet to make a proposal on duration, which will ultimately be based on a variety of factors, including the terms and enhancements in the new contract, expectations regarding the economy and the airline, and where our peers are in negotiations.

    Management’s proposal is exactly what APA predicted — a “shiny object” money-only proposal. This and other airline management teams have tried this tactic in the past as a method to effectively go around the Negotiating Committee and appeal directly to the pilots with the hope to have members put pressure on their union to move quickly to a deal. Happily, we can report that this tactic failed; we appreciate your response to our initial communications last Thursday and your overwhelming support for the Negotiating Committee to stay focused on our proposals and continue to move forward with our current plan.
    In addition to the economic elements, management proposed to explore modifications to certain operational “concepts to provide pilots with more flexibility and ensure the Company’s efficiencies.” Again, this approach is more reminiscent of an initial opener and includes general concepts. This management tactic is also designed to create hesitation and confusion within the pilot group and promote misinformation or improper assumptions. One rumor going around that can be killed right now is “airport ready reserve.” Management did not propose it, and APA will not accept it.
    Management’s list of concepts and areas of modification included:
    Administrative or minor modifications, such as:

    • Combine short-term and long-term sick leave banks.
    • Address regulatory requirements.
    • Remedy existing inconsistencies that exist in current contract language.

    Issues that could be beneficial to pilots, such as:

    • Variable premium options.
    • Agreement to not change “leg” to “sequence” Section 3.C.1.a., which would eliminate the unimplemented ability for management to pay a pilot for the lesser of underfly or scheduled.
    • Increase recording retention for Crew Scheduling calls (beneficial to both parties in resolving hearings and grievances).

    Several non-starters, such as:

    • Ability to block trips for CKA proficiency flying and consolidation.
    • Modify IMAX Retrospective Faction for Group I when they transition to a higher a/c group.
    • All pilots must check schedule for next assignment at end of debrief.
    • No timeframe for implementation of most contractual provisions other than the “earliest practicable time” — which is language management has previously used and continues to use to delay implementation of already negotiated terms, such as DOTC/RAS.

    The APA Negotiating Committee continues with our plan to put all of our detailed, well-thought-out initial proposals on the table by the end of August. We will then proceed to engage with management’s negotiating team in negotiating terms for a new contract that meets the priorities of our members:

    • Improve Scheduling, Company Transparency and Accountability, and Quality of Work Life
    • Achieve Industry-Leading Hourly Pay Rates and Address Gaps in Compensation and Benefits with Peers
    • Undertake Contract Repair, With a Focus On Items That Were Lost in Bankruptcy

    It’s Time.

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