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Thread: Envoy vs Republic/Endeavor

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    Envoy vs Republic/Endeavor


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    ďI always tell the truth. Even when I lie.Ē

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    Yeap average 20 dollars less per hour
    Go flow

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    First Year FO at Omni... $117 ph
    First year FO at AA...... $90 ph

    12 Year 767-300 CA at Omni... $297 ph
    12 year 767-300 CA at AA..... $293 ph

    I'm at 148 block hours for the year, and $75k as of 6-30 as a 2nd year FO
    my schedule is 1 leg, 2-3 nights sleep, then repeat...
    Min guarantee is 64 hrs, and in some special programs it is 80 hrs min guarantee. 3 pilots with my DOH or junior are holding the 80 hour guarantee schedules. I've never flown more than 48 hours in any month. Typically its 25-48 hours on average according to the company stats.
    upgrades under 3 years

    No reason for anybody to suffer through the treatment at Envoy for 6-11 years. Get in someplace that treats their employees properly, get the min time to apply elsewhere. Attend the job fairs and keep plugging away. As the shortage worsens the flow becomes less and less valuable every day.
    Getting on at a legacy, major, LCC or good ACMI 11 years ahead of flowing will get you better career earnings than waiting to flow. Do the math yourself and see.

    For me, not having to commute 3-5 times a month, having positive space tickets (and keeping the miles) and never ever buying my own hotels or crashpads is priceless. No stress ever over getting to work, or how to get home. No needing 2 flights to get to work, the flight from home is work. Keeping mostly all the hotel points is great also. Having a block of 14 days off all at once each month is a vacation every month. Put them together and you're off a month without usinig a single vacation day. Now, doing longer trips isn't for everybody, but if it works for you it's a fantastic plus.

    Southern is hiring brand new ATP into the 737, and if you have 500 hours 121 you can take the 777. Now, Southern is with Atlas under AAWW and are having a terrible contract fight. However, as poor as their current contract is, it's light years ahead of the treatment Envoy pilots are subjected to. The pay is sub standard but not the bottom either and well supersedes Envoy. In all seriousness, when they do get their new contract which will at least match the rest of the gains the ACMI segment is going through, the line to get the job there will quadruple overnight. It will be a very good job to have. It will be a great place to get heavy international time to differentiate yourself from all the thousands of regional Captains applying for LCC and majors. In fact, many may decide to even stay there once they get their new CBA. If you're thinking of jumping the sinking ship known as Envoy and are exceptionally low time, Southern would be a good pick. Atlas is still keeping a slightly higher mins.

    It's a great time to be a pilot
    Last edited by Cujo665; 07-19-2019 at 05:23 PM.
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    Good info for those who might consider Omni, etc. As far as AA, it MUST be reemphasized that AA pilotst are virtually certain to wallow in their bankruptcy contract for years to come and considering where AA appears to be headed, these might just be the ďgood timesĒ there, especially for junior flows.

    AA is truly a gamble now. Suffering years at a sweatshop for a gamble that didnít pay off would truly suck. Another painful consideration to confront is AA itself is becoming more of a sweatshop for pilots with each passing day.

    Caveat Emptor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    First Year FO at Omni... $117 ph
    First year FO at AA...... $90 ph

    12 Year 767-300 CA at Omni... $297 ph
    12 year 767-300 CA at AA..... $293 ph

    I'm at 148 block hours for the year, and $75k as of 6-30 as a 2nd year FO
    my schedule is 1 leg, 2-3 nights sleep, then repeat...
    Min guarantee is 64 hrs, and in some special programs it is 80 hrs min guarantee. 3 pilots with my DOH or junior are holding the 80 hour guarantee schedules. I've never flown more than 48 hours in any month. Typically its 25-48 hours on average according to the company stats.
    upgrades under 3 years

    No reason for anybody to suffer through the treatment at Envoy for 6-11 years. Get in someplace that treats their employees properly, get the min time to apply elsewhere. Attend the job fairs and keep plugging away. As the shortage worsens the flow becomes less and less valuable every day.
    Getting on at a legacy, major, LCC or good ACMI 11 years ahead of flowing will get you better career earnings than waiting to flow. Do the math yourself and see.

    For me, not having to commute 3-5 times a month, having positive space tickets (and keeping the miles) and never ever buying my own hotels or crashpads is priceless. No stress ever over getting to work, or how to get home. No needing 2 flights to get to work, the flight from home is work. Keeping mostly all the hotel points is great also. Having a block of 14 days off all at once each month is a vacation every month. Put them together and you're off a month without usinig a single vacation day. Now, doing longer trips isn't for everybody, but if it works for you it's a fantastic plus.

    Southern is hiring brand new ATP into the 737, and if you have 500 hours 121 you can take the 777. Now, Southern is with Atlas under AAWW and are having a terrible contract fight. However, as poor as their current contract is, it's light years ahead of the treatment Envoy pilots are subjected to. The pay is sub standard but not the bottom either and well supersedes Envoy. In all seriousness, when they do get their new contract which will at least match the rest of the gains the ACMI segment is going through, the line to get the job there will quadruple overnight. It will be a very good job to have. It will be a great place to get heavy international time to differentiate yourself from all the thousands of regional Captains applying for LCC and majors. In fact, many may decide to even stay there once they get their new CBA. If you're thinking of jumping the sinking ship known as Envoy and are exceptionally low time, Southern would be a good pick. Atlas is still keeping a slightly higher mins.

    It's a great time to be a pilot
    A bunch of fuzzy math here. Looks like you are trying your best to spin an ACMI as the cat's meow when it's absolutely the furtherest thing from the truth. Envoy far exceeds the career expectations of pipeline CFI's. Almost all of them I speak to would never consider Spirit, Allegiant, Jetblue much less an outfit like Omni or Atlas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    A bunch of fuzzy math here. Looks like you are trying your best to spin an ACMI as the cat's meow when it's absolutely the furtherest thing from the truth.
    Not sure what’s fuzzy about that math...

    2nd year 767 pay x min guarantee x 6 months
    $124*64*6 = $47616

    Per Diem
    Say 14 days of per diem a month
    $2 (domestic rate) is $48 a day
    $48 x 14 x 6 = $4032

    Total base $51,648.
    Cujo made ~$75
    $75-52 =$23 extra to make or ~$3,500 mo.

    At $124/hr that’s about 28 extra credit hours. For an avg of 92 credit hours a month. Seems very realistic.

    Now if you want to say 2nd year FOs make more per hour hour than that’s a valid argument.
    If you want to say hourly compensation for AA pilots will exceed Omni when negotiations are finished I would say your probably right.

    But fuzzy math?

    That’s just sound ignorant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    A bunch of fuzzy math here. Looks like you are trying your best to spin an ACMI as the cat's meow when it's absolutely the furtherest thing from the truth. Envoy far exceeds the career expectations of pipeline CFI's. Almost all of them I speak to would never consider Spirit, Allegiant, Jetblue much less an outfit like Omni or Atlas.
    Of course they'd say that to you. You're management. You asking that question is like a wife asking her traveling salesman husband, "Would you ever consider cheating on me while you're away?" Do you really think any husband would say "Well, honey, it has crossed my mind once or twice"?

    Almost every FO I fly with has apps out and is looking to go through the front door of another airline as soon as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdflyer View Post
    Not sure what’s fuzzy about that math...

    2nd year 767 pay x min guarantee x 6 months
    $124*64*6 = $47616

    Per Diem
    Say 14 days of per diem a month
    $2 (domestic rate) is $48 a day
    $48 x 14 x 6 = $4032

    Total base $51,648.
    Cujo made ~$75
    $75-52 =$23 extra to make or ~$3,500 mo.

    At $124/hr that’s about 28 extra credit hours. For an avg of 92 credit hours a month. Seems very realistic.

    Now if you want to say 2nd year FOs make more per hour hour than that’s a valid argument.
    If you want to say hourly compensation for AA pilots will exceed Omni when negotiations are finished I would say your probably right.

    But fuzzy math?

    That’s just sound ignorant.
    If one is counting on AA pilots to have a new contract anytime soon, that’s not likely to say the least. Parker is perfectly happy with the status quo regarding AA pilots and AA is more likely to be in Chapter 11 before any new contract is inked with the pilots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    If one is counting on AA pilots to have a new contract anytime soon, that’s not likely to say the least. Parker is perfectly happy with the status quo regarding AA pilots and AA is more likely to be in Chapter 11 before any new contract is inked with the pilots.
    I Agreed. But when itís all done I do believe their pay rates will exceed Omniís. Now the rest of the contract. Caveat emptor

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdflyer View Post
    I Agreed. But when it’s all done I do believe their pay rates will exceed Omni’s. Now the rest of the contract. Caveat emptor
    If a bankruptcy occurs, maybe not. But that being said, pay rates are only one component of total income and other factors could actually put more $ in the pockets of pilots even with slightly lower rates of pay. For example, in the next AA C11, scope is sure to be whacked which means not just stagnation for most at AA, but regression for many to lower paying equipment and for thousands at the bottom, a Group I existence (including Envoy style FAR scheduling), that’s both a pay and QWL cut. If thousands at the bottom of AA are shuffled back to a Envoy to fly former AA group I........well, you get the idea.

    With the path AA is on, all bets are off regarding future pay, job security and assumed retirement related seniority list progression. It’s red or black now for flows, the roulette wheel is spinning and no one knows if or when their bet will truly pay off.

  12. #12
    Super Moderator Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdflyer View Post
    Not sure whatís fuzzy about that math...

    2nd year 767 pay x min guarantee x 6 months
    $124*64*6 = $47616

    Per Diem
    Say 14 days of per diem a month
    $2 (domestic rate) is $48 a day
    $48 x 14 x 6 = $4032

    Total base $51,648.
    Cujo made ~$75
    $75-52 =$23 extra to make or ~$3,500 mo.

    At $124/hr thatís about 28 extra credit hours. For an avg of 92 credit hours a month. Seems very realistic.

    Now if you want to say 2nd year FOs make more per hour hour than thatís a valid argument.
    If you want to say hourly compensation for AA pilots will exceed Omni when negotiations are finished I would say your probably right.

    But fuzzy math?

    Thatís just sound ignorant.
    In addition it is the OT with over rides of $300, $400 & $500 for 1st, 2nd and 3rd or more days on top of the flight pay and per diem. DH is full rate at 50% of the flight time, and we DH a lot... mostly in first class racking up points. Thereís other hidden soft money too. I took some paid Vacation days also. I also enjoy flying the troops and families, even more so on overtime. I got removed from line one month for IOE, and took the OT pay and worked out of base in Seattle for the month. It was a $19k month all by itself.

    Iím on the 64 hour guarantee schedules. I can bid and hold the 80 hour lines, but Iím not fond of the destinations as much as my current flying. However, guys from my class and junior are doing the 80 hour lines... thatís $10,044 to show up before per diem and other over rides. An AA 2nd year FO on the guarantee only is $10,275 a month. Itís not as huge a difference as some seem to think. Upgrade is under three years, yes Iím close. I never commute on a day off on my own time. I never buy my own hotel for an early or late show. I keep all the air miles, and most hotel points. I fly one leg and take 2-3 nights RON before flying 1 leg back for 2-3 more nights rest. 8 legs a month is my schedule. This month, Iím only doing 6 legs... same pay. Iíll fly 36 and get paid for 64. How many are you flying? When Iím not at work, Iím in two of the best vacation spots in the country.

    With the fast upgrade here, and not having a huge number of years left to fly, Iíll make out better right here than if I had flowed. A younger guy would definitely make more career wise going to any of the legacies.... however, money isnít everything. Working at a place your boss treats the employees well, no commuting, no Crashpads, points and miles, a vacation every month, all has value too.
    Last edited by Cujo665; 07-20-2019 at 11:39 PM.

  13. #13
    Super Moderator Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdflyer View Post
    I Agreed. But when it’s all done I do believe their pay rates will exceed Omni’s. Now the rest of the contract. Caveat emptor
    We weren’t in negotiations for all that long. Ours is a 4 year CBA with openings in year three. Two years left. I hope APA does well and raises the bar for all. A rising tide lifts all boats.
    Last edited by Cujo665; 07-20-2019 at 08:01 PM.
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