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Thread: How to displace Envoy Captains to the right seat, again.

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    Registered User NoOtPilot's Avatar
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    How to displace Envoy Captains to the right seat, again.


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    If you hear that Your MEC is working on some kind of furlough protection.
    That only means one thing...
    American First Officers will come your way AAgain.

    Under such protection, Envoy Captains waiting to have a job opportunity to become First Officers at American will be displaced back to FO’s with FO pay. Don’t worry...but don’t forget history tends to repeat itself. Last time AA/APA used this LOA in the AE pilots contract, added eagle pilots another 10 years to their flow.

    It all begins with your MEC selling you a substantial INCREASE IN FLOW in return for two insignificant words, FURLOUGH & PROTECTION combined and embedded in few LOA’s. The significance of such protection will be downplayed by those that represent you and manipulated by those who pay you. They are going to make sure that all you hear and see is “INCREASE IN FLOW.”

    AAG will informed you of new routes & destinations, retirements & hiring projections along with deliveries coming to AA in the next year and a half.
    They WILL make you believe that the only logical explanation is “a furlough is impossible and growth is undeniable, Doug Parker is going to elevate his airline to the top, it’s time to be #1 AAgain, The New American...”it’s time”.”

    But be careful, AAG controls the information they want you to know. REMEMBER! nobody lies. AAG will play with your mind advertising facts that will let you “conclude” and “assume” future results and outcomes.

    BIG mistake, DON’T BE IGNORANT,
    unless you want to be.

    They will have you sailing in a sea of assumptions with tailwinds of rumors.

    ALPA and AAG Working Together “In Unity” what a great teAAm.
    Next thing you know, Envoy will be PROPERLY STAFFED and you are back on the right seat.


    Definition:
    A furlough "leave of absence” is a temporary leave of employees due to special needs of a company, which may be due to economic conditions at the specific employer. Those affected may seek other temporary employment during that time.
    Last edited by NoOtPilot; 06-11-2019 at 12:52 PM.

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    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    Ahhhhhh, the flow back again.
    Well first time eagle accrued seniority, vacation, retirement except seniority for pay while waiting, appears this time you will accrue nothing while waiting, let the good times roll.

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    IF (capitalized) the Envoy MEC is considering some type of "furlough protection", yes, there's no accrual of anything at AA while not on property there. To craft something of that sort would require APA and AA pilot approval. You can forget that. This would significantly dilute the value of that starting AA job at #15,000 on the AA pilot seniority list as the "lost years" do catch up to you as many flow-thru pilots of the past can attest to. Didn't (or doesn't) PSA (or is it Piedmont ?) have or had something like this in play ? Since it's within the realm of possibility the Envoy MEC could make a deal that could include something like this it's a valid concern, ESPECIALLY since they have ALREADY devalued the concept of seniority at Envoy by awarding it (or its bidding power which are synonymous) to pilots not on the seniority list (cadets).

    Again, I would hope they'd not be stupid enough to fly smack into the side of a DFR suit by self-dealing themselves their old jobs back at the expense of others, but when either intoxicated by tales of 72 virgins or that tale under threat, you never know.

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    Flow back go to the bottom of the fo seniority, no pay credit from aa, no former seniority from a wholly owned, nothing, bottom as a new hire. Simple as that. I believe its pdt does have a flow back but only for those that flowed and busted out of training at american. Very very narrow.

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    AA is retiring half the 15,000 pilots in the next 10 years. They won't be furloughing or flowing anyone back to the regionals unless something out of their control (9/11 part 2) happens.

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    Registered User NoOtPilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglepilot View Post
    AA is retiring half the 15,000 pilots in the next 10 years. They won't be furloughing or flowing anyone back to the regionals unless something out of their control (9/11 part 2) happens.
    or maybe something in their control.
    Last edited by NoOtPilot; 06-13-2019 at 01:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nootpilot View Post
    or maybe something in their control.
    spooooooookyyyyyyyyyyy

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    Super Moderator Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    IF (capitalized) the Envoy MEC is considering some type of "furlough protection", yes, there's no accrual of anything at AA while not on property there. To craft something of that sort would require APA and AA pilot approval. You can forget that. This would significantly dilute the value of that starting AA job at #15,000 on the AA pilot seniority list as the "lost years" do catch up to you as many flow-thru pilots of the past can attest to. Didn't (or doesn't) PSA (or is it Piedmont ?) have or had something like this in play ? Since it's within the realm of possibility the Envoy MEC could make a deal that could include something like this it's a valid concern, ESPECIALLY since they have ALREADY devalued the concept of seniority at Envoy by awarding it (or its bidding power which are synonymous) to pilots not on the seniority list (cadets).

    Again, I would hope they'd not be stupid enough to fly smack into the side of a DFR suit by self-dealing themselves their old jobs back at the expense of others, but when either intoxicated by tales of 72 virgins or that tale under threat, you never know.
    Really? The APA missed the boat when Envoy flowed over several people, then after getting their APA pilot seniority number promptly TDY'd them back to Envoy. Too late now, the precedent has been established and at best it's a grievance. Envoy guys will flow, step foot on AA property, get their pilot seniority number, and then be TDY'd back to Envoy.
    As an Envoy FO upgrades, they go for upgrade training, which will include enough time to pick up their AA numbers and by TDY'd back to Envoy to finish their two years as a line Captain.

    just spit-balling…..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    Really? The APA missed the boat when Envoy flowed over several people, then after getting their APA pilot seniority number promptly TDY'd them back to Envoy. Too late now, the precedent has been established and at best it's a grievance. Envoy guys will flow, step foot on AA property, get their pilot seniority number, and then be TDY'd back to Envoy.
    As an Envoy FO upgrades, they go for upgrade training, which will include enough time to pick up their AA numbers and by TDY'd back to Envoy to finish their two years as a line Captain.

    just spit-balling…..
    The only individual I heard of TDY back to Eagle was an Eagle management pilot (JW) and with APA approval and not to a line flying position. It was also a product of the process and provisions of Letter 3 which no longer exists. Your “spit-balling” scenario is confusing to me. You describe an Envoy F/O upgrading and then somehow flowing to AA only to be TDY’d to another airline and seniority list. If that were a valid process, what could stop an AA pilot from being TDY’d to Delta ? As for “precedent”, I think you’re stretching that way too far. Again, one or even a few pilots (if such a thing occurred) due to special circumstances of performing certain logistical or management functions getting APA agreement to obtain their AA seniority under the provisions of Letter 3 is and was not a blanket approval in perpetuity to run future Envoy line pilots onto the AA seniority list en masse outside of the long dead provisions of Letter 3 using any excuse and process that might benefit management.

    I don’t buy that as even a long shot.

    The APA CBA allows no such methodology of leaving AA to fly the line for another airline outside of furlough. Now if a pilot is furloughed and there is some agreement in place to streamline return to Envoy in the interim, that’s not an APA function so far as I can see. That’s an issue for Envoy pilots who might suffer because of it though depending on the agreed methodology.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 06-14-2019 at 05:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    The only individual I heard of TDY back to Eagle was an Eagle management pilot (JW) and with APA approval and not to a line flying position. It was also a product of the process and provisions of Letter 3 which no longer exists. Your “spit-balling” scenario is confusing to me. You describe an Envoy F/O upgrading and then somehow flowing to AA only to be TDY’d to another airline and seniority list. If that were a valid process, what could stop an AA pilot from being TDY’d to Delta ? As for “precedent”, I think you’re stretching that way too far. Again, one or even a few pilots (if such a thing occurred) due to special circumstances of performing certain logistical or management functions getting APA agreement to obtain their AA seniority under the provisions of Letter 3 is and was not a blanket approval in perpetuity to run future Envoy line pilots onto the AA seniority list en masse outside of the long dead provisions of Letter 3 using any excuse and process that might benefit management.

    I don’t buy that as even a long shot.

    The APA CBA allows no such methodology of leaving AA to fly the line for another airline outside of furlough. Now if a pilot is furloughed and there is some agreement in place to streamline return to Envoy in the interim, that’s not an APA function so far as I can see. That’s an issue for Envoy pilots who might suffer because of it though depending on the agreed methodology.
    If you check I think you’ll find several that flowed, then were detached back to Envoy.....

    your CBA says the company may grant LOA’s. Pretty sure What the employee does while on LOA isn’t covered by APA CBA. If the company allows them to continue flying elsewhere that’s their choice. They’ll just call it something else other than TDY, or LOA and tell you to file a grievance.
    Last edited by Cujo665; 06-16-2019 at 09:57 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    If you check I think you’ll find several that flowed, then were detached back to Envoy.....
    In fact, the last class of Letter 3 pilots with an 18 month lock in were allowed to return to Eagle IIRC due to 9/11. But....that was not an LOA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    your CBA says the company may grant LOA’s. Pretty sure What the employee does while on LOA isn’t covered by APA CBA. If the company allows them to continue flying elsewhere that’s their choice. They’ll just call it something else other than TDY, or LOA and tell you to file a grievance.
    Yes, LOA’s may be granted to a maximum of 30/year. They can even fly while on LOA. They DO NOT accrue longevity for pay or pension purposes though. But again, those are FAR different situations that what you seem to be implying. You seem to think AAG can subvert AA pilots CBA by unilaterally initiating a methodology whereby pilots from another airline (theoretically numbering in the hundreds or even thousands) can momentarily step foot on property solely for the purpose of establishing AA seniority and then return to another airline to perform long-term flying there. That is simply not going to happen Cuj. First of all, if there is any argument of “precedent”, the most sound one seems to be that any methodology to obtain AA occupational seniority outside of being assigned training, including a completion date must be something negotiated as was Letter 3, not unilaterally forced by management. To obtain AA occupational seniority one must at not only be assigned a new hire class, but a completion date as well. In other words, they would have to be run through training to completion, which costs money. AA pilots who go on LOA (and are approved) are AA pilots who have completed new-hire training. The parties pursuant to Letter 3 allowed certain pilots (few in number) certain abilities, but again, that was a product of the provisions of Letter 3 which no longer exists. AA pilots who go on TDY are also AA pilots who have completed new hire training.

    So AAG would then would return such a pilot back to Envoy (with Envoy seniority, no less) to fly for a period likely sufficient to require complete initial retraining upon return ? That’s A LOT of money. To do that with hundreds (or thousands) of pilots ? The financials alone don’t make sense. But turning away from cost, you imply to do this would simply be a “grievance” issue like, say......violating the reserve section of a contract. No, such a thing would be well beyond that, it would be what’s termed a Major Dispute subject to expedited arbitration. Beyond that, it would result in bedlam at AA and I have no doubt the poor chumps caught in the middle would be said Envoy pilots who would be Persona Non Grata among AA pilots whether it’s their fault or not.

    But this is all semantics. The fact is such a an assertion is too far out there to be of concern for so many reasons, it’s not worthy of consideration. AAG is not going to hijack and bypass APA’s seniority provisions and protections simply to solve their regional woes. Such an egregious attack would not hold water legally due to its obviously blatant purpose and the consequences of trying would be disastrous for AA. Just because Envoy ALPA has sold out the concept of seniority isn’t the same as a green light for AAG to dismantle the AA seniority list by forcing pilots from another airline on to it against APA’s will knowing those pilots won’t be flying for AA when they do that. If they could have done that, they wouldn’t have needed to negotiate Letter 3 provisions to allow the acquisition of AA seniority, including a small number of specific LOA instances, they would have done it.

    The scenario you imply simply isn’t realistic. If it was, NO seniority list would be safe, including yours.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 06-16-2019 at 05:29 PM.

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