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Thread: Spirit Window Open

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    Registered User NoOtPilot's Avatar
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    390 more pilots for the remainder of 2019.
    Min 2000 hours.
    Envoy Pilots (Welcome)
    NO METERING
    And the ability to get to AA faster than yourself.
    Last edited by NoOtPilot; 05-09-2019 at 08:13 PM.

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    So, you would choose to work at a low ball outfit that is essentially Mesa or Go Jets over AA. Got it.

    Enjoy that kool aid brah.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    So, you would choose to work at a low ball outfit that is essentially Mesa or Go Jets over AA. Got it.

    Enjoy that kool aid brah.
    Sorry Brah, you’re misrepresenting the situation (again).

    I think if one compares the two pilot CBA’s, from my understanding Spirit’s is superior in several areas, most notably certain scheduling provisions, reserve rules and LTD. AA pilots operate under a bankruptcy contract well over half a decade after the fact and trail most of the competition be they the two legacy carriers or AA’s more direct competitors in the LCC segment like Spirit. AA pilots have virtually no chance of any meaningful improvements for years to come either. Spirit ranks superior to AA in product by an increasing number of industry analysts and customers and their management is improving employee relations (especially pilot) vs. AA which is deteriorating further as we speak. Spirit isn’t saddled under a mountain of debt appropriate to the Himalayas either.

    It’s starting to be a reasonable consideration of not just using Spirit as a faster stepping stone to AA (again, if that’s a risk one is determined to take), but it being somewhere that over the long-term might just be the better destination then AA.

    I realize this assertion is excruciatingly painful for you to accept, thus aggressive denial is expected.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-09-2019 at 09:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    So, you would choose to work at a low ball outfit that is essentially Mesa or Go Jets over AA. Got it.

    Enjoy that kool aid brah.
    Trolls gotta troll.
    I guess he must be taking a break from jerkin his gherkin to fat guy and 175 videos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirsnacksalot View Post
    Trolls gotta troll.
    I guess he must be taking a break from jerkin his gherkin to fat guy and 175 videos.
    For the record, I think both the issues of his apparent obsession with the morbidly obese and admission of engaging in sexual self-abuse in response to visual stimulus from YouTube videos of Embraer 175’s are fair game for discussion among him and his audience at “The Dacuj round table meeting” in July. Mature adults should have no problem explaining their conduct and behavior especially when it’s related to their past interactions with said audience.

    It’s all part of establishing credibility by taking responsibility (or not).

    It will be expected Dacuj will be communicating the date and location of his presentation to those on the forum who wish to attend with sufficient notice for as many as possible to adjust their schedule’s around it. Again, I’m looking forward to hearing the post presentation reports on this website.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-10-2019 at 09:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    So, you would choose to work at a low ball outfit that is essentially Mesa or Go Jets over AA. Got it.

    Enjoy that kool aid brah.
    You need to seriously do the math on their new contract. Going there now at 2000 TT vs waiting 6-8 more years before flowing. An 8 year jump? You’d have been a CA there for several years before ever flowing to AA. It would take many years to catch up, and you wouldn’t start catching up until a CA at AA which could be another five years. If you aren’t under 35, you’re not catching up. The spirit scheduling of scheduling a max 4 days on and a min 4 days between trips guarantees a QOL superior to AA. They’re growing like a weed guaranteeing movement and seniority, rather than flowing to AA in five years as furlough fodder.
    Getting on at Jetblue, Spirit, Frontier, Kalitta & even Omni today is better than waiting 6-8 years to flow; Especially if you’re over 35 today. They’ll be making $200k plus as CA’s around the time that you upgrade at Envoy.
    Last edited by Cujo665; 05-14-2019 at 11:30 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    You need to seriously do the math on their new contract. Going there now at 2000 TT vs waiting 6-8 more years before flowing. An 8 year jump? You’d have been a CA there for several years before ever flowing to AA. It would take many years to catch up, and you wouldn’t start catching up until a CA at AA which could be another five years. If you aren’t under 35, you’re not catching up. The spirit scheduling of scheduling a max 4 days on and a min 4 dats between trips guarantees a QOL superior to AA. They’re growing like a weed guaranteeing movement and seniority, rather than flowing to AA in five years as furlough fodder.
    Getting on at Jetblue, Spirit, Frontier, Kalitta & even Omni today is better than waiting 6-8 years to flow; Especially if you’re over 35 today. They’ll be making $200k plus as CA’s around the time that you upgrade at Envoy.
    It might be more revealing to do the math on pay alone over an 8-year stretch of being at Spirit during that time, including several years as Captain vs. 8 years at "the 'Voy". Even with the first year teaser "bonus" here, your pay drops significantly and doesn't likely recover for several years. I'd bet direct comparison on 8 years of pay alone would put the Spirit pilot at least a couple of hundred grand ahead of the Voy pilot, maybe more. Considering the compounding potential of those hundreds of thousands of dollars over 20 years or more, that could be an extra half million or more in career value right there and would also in the interim make an excellent financial back-up/stopgap fund in case things flopped after you got to AA. Additionally, the disability provisions at Spirit are superior to AA and considering Envoy pilots have zero disability, should you lose your medical during your Spirit tenure, you're better off then even an AA pilot and at Envoy, you'd be selling nails at Home Depot just to cover your mortgage until you could unload your house for cheaper digs.

    Then there's the QWL difference between Spirit and Envoy. We could probably discuss that all day long as Envoy isn't even in the same solar system as Spirit, let alone the same planet. All in all, I see little competition between the two and Spirit (or similar carriers) simply offer that which Envoy cannot and never will. Better pay, better QWL and better security in the form of disability all while building better credentials not just for future consideration at AA, but elsewhere. But, I think that's the point of the flow. It's designed and marketed in such a way so as to get you to focus ONLY on that and avoid looking around to consider other options and/or perform any career due diligence. Carriers like Spirit also have MUCH more upside potential if one factors in AA's obstacles and risks and the possibility of bad timing flipping AA over into an inverted flat spin. My message all along...….don't box yourself in, look around, explore options, get information and make informed decisions as opposed to becoming comfortably numb just believing stories by some with self-serving agenda's using the promise of a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow they are selling. Besides, I think if one truly looks at the supposed "pot of gold" at the end of the Envoy rainbow, they'll see it's really just stainless steel that's been painted gold.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-10-2019 at 01:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Sorry Brah, youíre misrepresenting the situation (again).

    I think if one compares the two pilot CBAís, from my understanding Spiritís is superior in several areas, most notably certain scheduling provisions, reserve rules and LTD. AA pilots operate under a bankruptcy contract well over half a decade after the fact and trail most of the competition be they the two legacy carriers or AAís more direct competitors in the LCC segment like Spirit. AA pilots have virtually no chance of any meaningful improvements for years to come either. Spirit ranks superior to AA in product by an increasing number of industry analysts and customers and their management is improving employee relations (especially pilot) vs. AA which is deteriorating further as we speak. Spirit isnít saddled under a mountain of debt appropriate to the Himalayas either.

    Itís starting to be a reasonable consideration of not just using Spirit as a faster stepping stone to AA (again, if thatís a risk one is determined to take), but it being somewhere that over the long-term might just be the better destination then AA.

    I realize this assertion is excruciatingly painful for you to accept, thus aggressive denial is expected.
    APA concerns themselves with the $$/Hour/Equipment. Canít see the forest through the trees.

    I got rerouted last night. Overnight went from 16 hours to 18 hours. Ended up flying a TPA-FLL instead of a TPA-PHL. Got moved up (premium pay) so they could catch back up with my original trip today. Pay went up a lot.

    Ohh yeah, also the cool thing about only having 73s is that I can fly almost ANY open trip in the system (save ETOPS for now). Flexibility is unmatched.

    Summary
    Flew Less
    Rested Longer
    Got Premium Pay
    2-Day trip worth 18 TFP (15:30 hrs).

    SWA is hiring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertRoss View Post
    APA concerns themselves with the $$/Hour/Equipment. Can’t see the forest through the trees.

    I got rerouted last night. Overnight went from 16 hours to 18 hours. Ended up flying a TPA-FLL instead of a TPA-PHL. Got moved up (premium pay) so they could catch back up with my original trip today. Pay went up a lot.

    Ohh yeah, also the cool thing about only having 73s is that I can fly almost ANY open trip in the system (save ETOPS for now). Flexibility is unmatched.

    Summary
    Flew Less
    Rested Longer
    Got Premium Pay
    2-Day trip worth 18 TFP (15:30 hrs).

    SWA is hiring.
    Good for you.....this type of thing does happen.

    But allowing yourself to become myopically focused on when a flawed system (or in the case of AA pilots, inferior) just happens to grace you with a good outcome is NOT the same as having better foundational scheduling constraints and associated penalties in your contract. Nor is it the same as having a management team that at least makes SOME effort at giving a damn about you. That's where APA as you rightfully note "can't see the forest through the trees". Actually, since it's virtually certain AA pilots will not be seeing any contract improvements of substance for the foreseeable future, they will be wallowing in that spastic, sporadic and unpredictable forest for years. For every story of lucking out like yours, my bet says there are an equal number of when pilots got screwed. The undeniable fact is AA pilots rank either in the middle or frequently near the bottom of most contractual metrics compared with their peers with no 'get out of jail free' card coming anytime soon.

    Actually, IMO one of the worst components of just WHY AA pilots are unlikely to see any changes and why they ARE likely to watch the competition, including Spirit and other similar carrier continue to become smaller dots in their front windshield is the belief life is good at AA because life might be good NOW or occasionally now. That could include not JUST contractual loopholes and staffing, but one's base, equipment, etc. Big changes can change your reality. How about a commute to LGA ? What if it was bad enough to mean reserve or even worse Short-call ? Couldn't happen, you say ? Ahhh…...how many pilots have said that over the decades, eh ? Good luck in the future at or near the bottom of that list (which is getting noticeably smaller ALREADY). Maybe it would be a good idea to bank that extra cash you make on these little operational four leaf clovers into savings just in case you one day you might actually have to consider the fact SWA is hiring or commuting/crash pad expenses ?

    Just a thought.

    By all means, don't curse the wind when it's at your back, but also look around and see if any storm clouds are brewing which just might change your weather and its associated wind completely. Beware of the 'Hot Hand Fallacy'.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-14-2019 at 11:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Good for you.....this type of thing does happen.

    But allowing yourself to become myopically focused on when a flawed system (or in the case of AA pilots, inferior) just happens to grace you with a good outcome is NOT the same as having better foundational scheduling constraints and associated penalties in your contract. Nor is it the same as having a management team that at least makes SOME effort at giving a damn about you. That's where APA as you rightfully note "can't see the forest through the trees".....
    Yes reroutes are rarely this nice. But as a general statement, at SWA, the more screwed the reroute is, the more money you make.

    It makes it much easier to swallow.
    Last edited by RobertRoss; 05-14-2019 at 12:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Good for you.....this type of thing does happen.

    But allowing yourself to become myopically focused on when a flawed system (or in the case of AA pilots, inferior) just happens to grace you with a good outcome is NOT the same as having better foundational scheduling constraints and associated penalties in your contract. Nor is it the same as having a management team that at least makes SOME effort at giving a damn about you. That's where APA as you rightfully note "can't see the forest through the trees". Actually, since it's virtually certain AA pilots will not be seeing any contract improvements of substance for the foreseeable future, they will be wallowing in that spastic, sporadic and unpredictable forest for years. For every story of lucking out like yours, my bet says there are an equal number of when pilots got screwed. The undeniable fact is AA pilots rank either in the middle or frequently near the bottom of most contractual metrics compared with their peers with no 'get out of jail free' card coming anytime soon.

    Actually, IMO one of the worst components of just WHY AA pilots are unlikely to see any changes and why they ARE likely to watch the competition, including Spirit and other similar carrier continue to become smaller dots in their front windshield is the belief life is good at AA because life might be good NOW or occasionally now. That could include not JUST contractual loopholes and staffing, but one's base, equipment, etc. Big changes can change your reality. How about a commute to LGA ? What if it was bad enough to mean reserve or even worse Short-call ? Couldn't happen, you say ? Ahhh…...how many pilots have said that over the decades, eh ? Good luck in the future at or near the bottom of that list (which is getting noticeably smaller ALREADY). Maybe it would be a good idea to bank that extra cash you make on these little operational four leaf clovers into savings just in case you one day you might actually have to consider the fact SWA is hiring or commuting/crash pad expenses ?

    Just a thought.

    By all means, don't curse the wind when it's at your back, but also look around and see if any storm clouds are brewing which just might change your weather and its associated wind completely. Beware of the 'Hot Hand Fallacy'.
    Blah blah blah blah blah blah....myopic....blah blah blah.....four leaf clovers....blah BLAH BLAH.

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    Registered User Dacuj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertRoss View Post
    Yes reroutes are rarely this nice. But as a general statement, at SWA, the more screwed the reroute is, the more money you make.

    It makes it much easier to swallow.
    Good for you. Now, you don't even work here. So, you can't know a thing about life at AA. Fact is, we don't care about SWA and they "way you do things over there."

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    Oh what he said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertRoss View Post
    Yes reroutes are rarely this nice. But as a general statement, at SWA, the more screwed the reroute is, the more money you make.

    It makes it much easier to swallow.
    I've had discussions with several SWA pilots over the years. Their flexibility runs circles around AA's. Now, yes....they fly A LOT, but their schedules are very efficient meaning they're at work earning their $ or at home for the most part. Pay wise, they are WELL past most AA pilots. Group II wise, many captains can beat AA captains at least $50K/year and some at or close to $100K/year with more time at home. Spirit isn't there yet, but they are on an upward trajectory (and will have to be to prevent future poaching) while AA pilots are destined to spin their wheels in the mud. Many are fine with that, but AA's financial risks are the straw to really worry about. Time and timing could lead to a MAJOR change in the world of the AA pilot and not likely for the better.

    Just my .02, as always.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    I've had discussions with several SWA pilots over the years. Their flexibility runs circles around AA's. Now, yes....they fly A LOT, but their schedules are very efficient meaning they're at work earning their $ or at home for the most part. Pay wise, they are WELL past most AA pilots. Group II wise, many captains can beat AA captains at least $50K/year and some at or close to $100K/year with more time at home. Spirit isn't there yet, but they are on an upward trajectory (and will have to be to prevent future poaching) while AA pilots are destined to spin their wheels in the mud. Many are fine with that, but AA's financial risks are the straw to really worry about. Time and timing could lead to a MAJOR change in the world of the AA pilot and not likely for the better.

    Just my .02, as always.....
    Doubt your opinion is even worth half that much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertRoss View Post
    Yes reroutes are rarely this nice. But as a general statement, at SWA, the more screwed the reroute is, the more money you make.

    It makes it much easier to swallow.
    My sincere apology.

    I didn't pick up the fact that you are at SWA and not AA. My response was geared to someone junior at AA who might get a reroute like yours and assume that life will always be great in the future. Not perfect and it slipped past me. I'll try to read a bit closer next time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Good for you. Now, you don't even work here. So, you can't know a thing about life at AA. Fact is, we don't care about SWA and they "way you do things over there."
    We have a quick one here folks.

    And in that respect, neither does anyone at envoy, so Iím not really sure how me speaking about the good SWA things is any different than you talking about good AA things. (I mean, except for the fact that Iím not full of ****).

    Webster has a word for that.


    Now Iím just letting my former colleagues know that there is another option, especially for anyone living in SWA bases. You can be based all but Atlanta almost immediately.
    Last edited by RobertRoss; 05-14-2019 at 01:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Blah blah blah blah blah blah....myopic....blah blah blah.....four leaf clovers....blah BLAH BLAH.
    All this and STILL no substance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Doubt your opinion is even worth half that much.
    Yet you act as if it's everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    My sincere apology.

    I didn't pick up the fact that you are at SWA and not AA. My response was geared to someone junior at AA who might get a reroute like yours and assume that life will always be great in the future. Not perfect and it slipped past me. I'll try to read a bit closer next time.
    Its all good.

    While it does happen, a SWA reroute rarely results is in the same pay. More is the norm.

    This is an advantage to everyone in the system.

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