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Thread: ENY ALPA Negotiation Update #2

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    ENY ALPA Negotiation Update #2


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    Don’t need three paragraphs to say this...
    “If a company wishes to staff their airline, they must offer compensation that will attract and retain pilots. This is management's responsibility and the pilots of Envoy have made their collective and united voice clear – they will not "pay" for pay rate changes.”

    (Business of Hope)
    Exactly what you want to hear.

    Let’s see how your MEC reacts, when the company starts playing hardball this week.
    Utilizing fear techniques like the ones used on the past.

    “We are going to close NY(JFK & LGA).”
    Which, BTW, they are going to close anyway.

    “We have no choice but to contract Envoy’s flying to carriers outside of its wholly owned subsidiaries.”

    Like they did on November 15, 2012, with SkyWest Airlines and ExpressJet Airlines.

    On August 1, 2013, Republic Airlines,
    part of a 12-year capacity purchase agreement to operate Embraer E-175 aircraft.

    March 27, 2015 a deal with Compass Airlines to operate 20 new Embraer E-175 aircraft(Envoy’s planes) in LAX.


    Let’s see if Your MEC is as tough as they sound in their Negotiations Update #2.

    However, one message was made very clear to the pilots...

    “Make sure to continue to remain engaged...”
    Last edited by NoOtPilot; 05-06-2019 at 05:04 PM.

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    Basically a reworded email from the last email. Absolutely nothing new from the last one. Par for the course. Wait for number 3, it will be telling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    Don’t need three paragraphs to say this...
    “If a company wishes to staff their airline, they must offer compensation that will attract and retain pilots. This is management's responsibility and the pilots of Envoy have made their collective and united voice clear – they will not "pay" for pay rate changes.”

    (Business of Hope)
    Exactly what you want to hear.

    Let’s see how your MEC reacts, when the company starts playing hardball this week.
    Utilizing fear techniques like the ones used on the past.

    “We are going to close NY(JFK & LGA).”
    Which, BTW, they are going to close anyway.

    “We have no choice but to contract Envoy’s flying to carriers outside of its wholly owned subsidiaries.”

    Like they did on November 15, 2012, with SkyWest Airlines and ExpressJet Airlines.

    On August 1, 2013, Republic Airlines,
    part of a 12-year capacity purchase agreement to operate Embraer E-175 aircraft.

    March 27, 2015 a deal with Compass Airlines to operate 20 new Embraer E-175 aircraft(Envoy’s planes) in LAX.


    Let’s see if Your MEC is as tough as they sound in their Negotiations Update #2.

    However, one message was made very clear to the pilots...

    “Make sure to continue to remain engaged...”
    If they’re going to strongarm the MEC (again), my bet says they use the flow-thru. They know THAT is the soft underbelly and/or the best button to push. Also look for them to try and circumnavigate the Association and work on the pilots in the hope the MEC will get pressure from both sides.

    F ear
    U ncertainty
    D oubt

    Envoy management may just have (or believe) they have their backs against the wall. If they cannot look more superior to Piedmont and PSA’s management in their prowess to manipulate and control their pilots, they risk losing fair-haired boy status to upper AAG management, their bosses. Envoy pilots, just like AA pilots are STILL operating under a bankruptcy contract over 7 years later and after AAG has raked in Billions in profits, yet both labor groups trail their peers at the back of the pack. If Envoy ALPA and the pilots cannot finally just say “no” this time, all is lost.

    There’s a flipside to that though. There’s an apt saying that the level of reward is tied to the level of risk and the risk is that Envoy management (with a green light from AAG) might force some pain on this pilot group for at least a little while until they can’t bluff any more. I say this because there is another consideration for Envoy being treated differently then Piedmont or PSA. Let’s consider for a moment a future planned end game. What if a consolidation is ultimately planned for Envoy and either one or both WO’s and/or an outside carrier ?

    There may just be a reason they’d want certain work rule concessions in Envoy’s CBA. Pilot rates are good bait to serve management’s needs, but work rule concessions can easily pay for them. Regardless of whether Envoy stands alone or consolidates, competitive rates (but likely not industry leading) serve a purpose as much for them as pilots, but be wary of any concessions to pay for them. Also be especially wary of ANY issue that weakens the Envoy pilot group in a consolidation scenario.

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    Somebody post the entire email for those not on the best boy list anymore.....
    __________________________________________________ __

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    If they’re going to strongarm the MEC (again), my bet says they use the flow-thru. They know THAT is the soft underbelly and/or the best button to push. Also look for them to try and circumnavigate the Association and work on the pilots in the hope the MEC will get pressure from both sides.

    F ear
    U ncertainty
    D oubt

    Envoy management may just have (or believe) they have their backs against the wall. If they cannot look more superior to Piedmont and PSA’s management in their prowess to manipulate and control their pilots, they risk losing fair-haired boy status to upper AAG management, their bosses. Envoy pilots, just like AA pilots are STILL operating under a bankruptcy contract over 7 years later and after AAG has raked in Billions in profits, yet both labor groups trail their peers at the back of the pack. If Envoy ALPA and the pilots cannot finally just say “no” this time, all is lost.

    There’s a flipside to that though. There’s an apt saying that the level of reward is tied to the level of risk and the risk is that Envoy management (with a green light from AAG) might force some pain on this pilot group for at least a little while until they can’t bluff any more. I say this because there is another consideration for Envoy being treated differently then Piedmont or PSA. Let’s consider for a moment a future planned end game. What if a consolidation is ultimately planned for Envoy and either one or both WO’s and/or an outside carrier ?

    There may just be a reason they’d want certain work rule concessions in Envoy’s CBA. Pilot rates are good bait to serve management’s needs, but work rule concessions can easily pay for them. Regardless of whether Envoy stands alone or consolidates, competitive rates (but likely not industry leading) serve a purpose as much for them as pilots, but be wary of any concessions to pay for them. Also be especially wary of ANY issue that weakens the Envoy pilot group in a consolidation scenario.
    FUD? More like FUPM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snippercr View Post
    FUD? More like FUPM.
    It does say FUPM. Look closer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    Somebody post the entire email for those not on the best boy list anymore.....
    Fellow Envoy Pilots,

    Understandably, there have been growing questions over the progress of attaining compensation similar to what PSA pilots have received. Since the news broke almost a month ago, ALPA has been discussing implementing similar changes at our property with Envoy management. At the MEC's request, ALPA Economic and Financial Analysis (E&FA) has been working closely with the Negotiating Committee to make sure all implications of similar changes at Envoy are fully recognized. Following extensive analysis of the data, discussions with the company will continue into this week.

    Pay rate increases in our industry are inevitable. Pilots just are not willing to work for regional carriers at the historically low wages; recent changes at several carriers are reflecting that. If a company wishes to staff their airline, they must offer compensation that will attract and retain pilots. This is management's responsibility and the pilots of Envoy have made their collective and united voice clear – they will not "pay" for pay rate changes.

    Make sure to continue to remain engaged with your status reps and P2P volunteers – your input and feedback are instrumental in guiding the MEC forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flyinsol0 View Post
    Fellow Envoy Pilots,

    Understandably, there have been growing questions over the progress of attaining compensation similar to what PSA pilots have received. Since the news broke almost a month ago, ALPA has been discussing implementing similar changes at our property with Envoy management. At the MEC's request, ALPA Economic and Financial Analysis (E&FA) has been working closely with the Negotiating Committee to make sure all implications of similar changes at Envoy are fully recognized. Following extensive analysis of the data, discussions with the company will continue into this week.

    Pay rate increases in our industry are inevitable. Pilots just are not willing to work for regional carriers at the historically low wages; recent changes at several carriers are reflecting that. If a company wishes to staff their airline, they must offer compensation that will attract and retain pilots. This is management's responsibility and the pilots of Envoy have made their collective and united voice clear – they will not "pay" for pay rate changes.

    Make sure to continue to remain engaged with your status reps and P2P volunteers – your input and feedback are instrumental in guiding the MEC forward.
    ^^^^^

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    Quote Originally Posted by snippercr View Post
    FUD? More like FUPM.
    That might be the “foot stomp” message of the MEC, but the FUD tactics are that of management and that was my angle. “FUPM” is just something borrowed from APA of many days gone past. Besides, what is the Envoy MEC really “negotiating” now ? Long overdue industry leading compensation ? No. A new standard of treatment and respect ? No. They are simply hoping to prove why they should at least get what other WO carriers get, which in and of itself is still substandard and will result in neither a stampede to Envoy, nor prevent significant exodus. As for pay solving the regional industries woes beyond just Envoy (and in a 5-7 years, the legacy carriers), highly unlikely. That issue is far more complex then simple pay rates.

    If you look at the number of pilots needed domestically alone in the coming decade (especially in theory at AA) and beyond, it will require cultivating far more then those that will pursue it simply for passion. Many, even with passion don’t have the aptitude, so the available pool is and will be fairly limited. To maximize that pool, it will require a complete shift into what becoming an “Airline Pilot” is and a return to it being a very lucrative career, instead of just a “job”. All the spin and B.S. in the world won’t get young recruits to make the massive sacrifices when they know through the grapevine, it’s just another job and at the regional level, a marginal one at that and especially one that can vaporize instantaneously with one bad card in the medical dept.

    You then have to start all over from scratch and all that emotional and financial “investment” was wasted.

    Until Airline management’s realize they have to return this once attractive profession from its present high-risk “job” status, little will change and the dike simply sprouts more leaks. Again, IMO they’re WAY too late now and in a few years will be in full blown panic as their business become financially perilous. Not all, like Delta, but IMO it’s virtually certain AA and the Eagle system will be among the leaders on the financial peril list, unless they plan to fragment and/or downsize. It takes years and upwards of $100K (which will go up) to get a pilot through all the hoops to the 1500 hour new-hire indoc slot at a regional and they have fallen WAY behind the curve cultivating that necessary “pipeline”. That’s what happens when you lose sight of the long-term concerns of your business in exchange for short-term domination. At AA and Envoy, nothing has changed. At Delta and soon much of AA’s competition, it is and will.

    Collectively, the various management’s of this industry killed the golden goose (pilots) and to varying degrees their businesses will suffer the consequences and at AAG, even with that, they are STILL kicking the carcass. In a few years, Delta and its regional system will have pilots from other carriers aggressively vying for those slots while AA and its regional system will wallow in peril getting further behind as they are seen by too many (and increasing) as nothing more then a Walmart environment and that won’t put the pilots at AA and by default, the Eagle system over the long-term. They certainly won’t get the cream of the crop, but the scraps and that means more training dollars invested. You can tell they haven’t learned a damn thing and are simply going through the same old dysfunctional motions that got them exactly where they are today.

    Good luck to the MEC on getting parity with the other WO’s, just don’t confuse that with something that’s going to change AAG’s future one iota as really NOTHING has changed. IMO, regardless of what occurs with this latest push for parity, pilots here should still not lose sight of the big picture both within Envoy/AA and outside of it.

    Caveat Emptor.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-07-2019 at 10:44 AM.

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    THERE. IS. NO. PILOT. SHORTAGE.

    Envoy continues to attract pipeline candidates from the partner universities in massively large numbers. You could describe it as HORDES. Every single one of them want to work for AA. Makes their choice SUPER easy. I'm sure some of you here are IN and know exactly how well this program has spun up providing some of the highest quality aviators ever seen at the Voy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    THERE. IS. NO. PILOT. SHORTAGE.

    Envoy continues to attract pipeline candidates from the partner universities in massively large numbers. You could describe it as HORDES. Every single one of them want to work for AA. Makes their choice SUPER easy. I'm sure some of you here are IN and know exactly how well this program has spun up providing some of the highest quality aviators ever seen at the Voy.
    You just called AAG management liars.

    Even THEY are on record as admitting there is a pilot SHORTAGE at the regional level. Besides, if there was no pilot shortage, the “Voy” as you call it would be flowing pilots at more then minimum rate and providing acceptable scheduling quality to their pilots. Envoy is no different today then it was a year ago and appears it will be no different a year from now. Same old philosophy, same old playbook and considering where Envoy IS now.......

    .....that means SAME OLD DESTINATION in the future.

    * What is that old saying about doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result ? What do they call that again ?

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    I said nothing of the sort. There is no shortage at Envoy as per the amount of pipeline candidates flooding the system. My view and opinion only. However, it is the truth. Why don't you take a walk down to Envoy recruiting and speak to the hardworking guys and gals there? That is, if you still work here and can get in. Guarantee you every single one of them will be higher than a kite on the pipeline program. This program is the best thing since sliced bread. Forget ab initio. The airline would bear all of the cost of this. The aviators themselves in partnership with financing institutions and the universities cover the cost and each and every one of them is hungry to be at Envoy. Trust me.

    Now, if Envoy could finally weed out and get rid of all of the guys who didn't come through the pipeline, they would seriously start to rock and roll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    That might be the “foot stomp” message of the MEC, but the FUD tactics are that of management and that was my angle. “FUPM” is just something borrowed from APA of many days gone past. Besides, what is the Envoy MEC really “negotiating” now ? Long overdue industry leading compensation ? No. A new standard of treatment and respect ? No. They are simply hoping to prove why they should at least get what other WO carriers get, which in and of itself is still substandard and will result in neither a stampede to Envoy, nor prevent significant exodus. As for pay solving the regional industries woes beyond just Envoy (and in a 5-7 years, the legacy carriers), highly unlikely. That issue is far more complex then simple pay rates.

    If you look at the number of pilots needed domestically alone in the coming decade (especially in theory at AA) and beyond, it will require cultivating far more then those that will pursue it simply for passion. Many, even with passion don’t have the aptitude, so the available pool is and will be fairly limited. To maximize that pool, it will require a complete shift into what becoming an “Airline Pilot” is and a return to it being a very lucrative career, instead of just a “job”. All the spin and B.S. in the world won’t get young recruits to make the massive sacrifices when they know through the grapevine, it’s just another job and at the regional level, a marginal one at that and especially one that can vaporize instantaneously with one bad card in the medical dept.

    You then have to start all over from scratch and all that emotional and financial “investment” was wasted.

    Until Airline management’s realize they have to return this once attractive profession from its present high-risk “job” status, little will change and the dike simply sprouts more leaks. Again, IMO they’re WAY too late now and in a few years will be in full blown panic as their business become financially perilous. Not all, like Delta, but IMO it’s virtually certain AA and the Eagle system will be among the leaders on the financial peril list, unless they plan to fragment and/or downsize. It takes years and upwards of $100K (which will go up) to get a pilot through all the hoops to the 1500 hour new-hire indoc slot at a regional and they have fallen WAY behind the curve cultivating that necessary “pipeline”. That’s what happens when you lose sight of the long-term concerns of your business in exchange for short-term domination. At AA and Envoy, nothing has changed. At Delta and soon much of AA’s competition, it is and will.

    Collectively, the various management’s of this industry killed the golden goose (pilots) and to varying degrees their businesses will suffer the consequences and at AAG, even with that, they are STILL kicking the carcass. In a few years, Delta and its regional system will have pilots from other carriers aggressively vying for those slots while AA and its regional system will wallow in peril getting further behind as they are seen by too many (and increasing) as nothing more then a Walmart environment and that won’t put the pilots at AA and by default, the Eagle system over the long-term. They certainly won’t get the cream of the crop, but the scraps and that means more training dollars invested. You can tell they haven’t learned a damn thing and are simply going through the same old dysfunctional motions that got them exactly where they are today.

    Good luck to the MEC on getting parity with the other WO’s, just don’t confuse that with something that’s going to change AAG’s future one iota as really NOTHING has changed. IMO, regardless of what occurs with this latest push for parity, pilots here should still not lose sight of the big picture both within Envoy/AA and outside of it.

    Caveat Emptor.
    I actually agree with basically everything you said and I appreciate the direction of your post. Even if you have disdain for ALPA, you recognize this is AAG's problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    I said nothing of the sort. There is no shortage at Envoy as per the amount of pipeline candidates flooding the system. My view and opinion only. However, it is the truth. Why don't you take a walk down to Envoy recruiting and speak to the hardworking guys and gals there? That is, if you still work here and can get in. Guarantee you every single one of them will be higher than a kite on the pipeline program. This program is the best thing since sliced bread. Forget ab initio. The airline would bear all of the cost of this. The aviators themselves in partnership with financing institutions and the universities cover the cost and each and every one of them is hungry to be at Envoy. Trust me.
    TRUST you ? You must be joking.

    You did say exactly that and in capital letters. There IS a pilot shortage. I have no doubt there are some honorable folks working in Envoy recruiting and there's certainly nothing wrong with that IMO. My criticisms go elsewhere and one of them is presenting misleading situations simply to achieve a goal. Aside from the ethics, in Envoy's case it's not going to work in the long run. B.S. simply wont sell that which Envoy (and AA) needs, most especially in the future.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Now, if Envoy could finally weed out and get rid of all of the guys who didn't come through the pipeline, they would seriously start to rock and roll.
    What type of statement is this ?

    At the risk of once again having you come back and claim you didn't say something you did, I read this as you advocate termination of all non-pipeline Envoy pilots. You do realize that is probably the majority of the Envoy pilot group, yes ? Should your wish come true, you then think Envoy would "rock and roll" ? I think it would damn near cease ops. It does prove one point and a point I've previously made and that's you have no interest in the welfare of Envoy pilots per se, for if you did, you would see all Envoy pilots as equal. Clearly, you do not. That is all simply subterfuge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snippercr View Post
    I actually agree with basically everything you said and I appreciate the direction of your post. Even if you have disdain for ALPA, you recognize this is AAG's problem.
    What happened to you Snip? I find it hypocritical that in the not too distant past, you were a huge advocate for the flow and for working for American Airlines both on here and APC as well. What has changed and why are you buying a snake oil salesman's pitch?

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    Quote Originally Posted by snippercr View Post
    I actually agree with basically everything you said and I appreciate the direction of your post. Even if you have disdain for ALPA, you recognize this is AAG's problem.
    It's ALWAYS been AAG's problem and was AMR's before that. The response to which is another problem because it's not been changed and that is my criticism of ALPA. For the record APA is no different and just like here, the results will likely be similar, unless there is a change. I have nothing against the present MEC personally, they are simply following in the same dysfunctional footsteps of those who made them in past. In the past, I admit I was as much a part of the same problem, so I take some responsibility for being a complicit enabler too. All I can do now is present the mistakes I believe were made in the past by others including myself in the hope something is learned and at some point, history stops repeating itself. The Texas mafia and "Team Tony" played the same hands as have been played by this MEC, so they are not alone.

    Maybe they are ready to stop being complicit enablers ending up with the losing hand ? I hope so. IMO, it's time to let go of that past and let management solve their own problems. IMO, if they want to have a chance at that, sweeping change is necessary and unless that is not only negotiated, but backed up with iron-clad language with expensive consequences if they once again have crossed their fingers behind their backs, history repeats itself. Fine, match pay with the other WO's, but that should not include any concessions and just as importantly no agreement for praise to this management, just simple neutral acknowledgement. Then, let the chips fall where they may and they will inevitable fall again as little will change for Envoy unless THEY change. Pay rate increases are NOT change. It's now up to THEM to solve the problems THEY have cultivated, so let THEM solve them. Unless it involves that sweeping change, then let them solve them ALONE.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-07-2019 at 11:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    What happened to you Snip? I find it hypocritical that in the not too distant past, you were a huge advocate for the flow and for working for American Airlines both on here and APC as well. What has changed and why are you buying a snake oil salesman's pitch?
    I'M the snake oil salesman ?

    I doubt he is buying into anyone's "pitch". Maybe he's just seeing things a bit differently as time goes on. Maybe what I say is just what is obvious ? Painful, but obvious. Maybe....just maybe there are real problems in this industry that ARE getting worse and in AA/Envoy's case have the potential to get MUCH, MUCH worse then others. Maybe what's happening now has always been happening and maybe there just isn't any rationalization to pretend all is well, when it is not. I wouldn't worry too much if you're concerned about snip calling me out on things he disagrees with me on. I'm sure that will occur. You see this as a personal thing with "sides" where I am only concerned with the welfare of pilots and the concept of ethics. Actually, I WANT Envoy to survive and prosper (at least in its required role) and want that for AA, I just see that not happening and likely to happen even less in the future. No pleasure there.

    You on the other hand have already just proved in your last post (don't waste time denying it) that you actually don't care about Envoy PILOTS, you care only about Envoy the airline. You see the heart of Envoy, NOT in its employees and certainly not pilots, but in its profits. You're a management mind, NOT a pilot/employee mind and it bothers you aren't doing well pretending to be the latter to better spread YOUR snake oil. Personally, I think you're in the wrong business.

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    https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.raa.org/re...regas.docx.pdf

    ..."This is not only slowing down the career development of these prospective professional pilots, but also isdepriving the nation’s air transportation system of skilled crew, especially in the regional airline industry.Combined with the additional staffing restrictions that result from FAR 117, FAR 61’s requirements arecreating a shortage of qualified and available pilots...."

    ..."This has become an obstacle to the industry’s continuing ability to provide regional air service to manysmall and medium sized communities around the country. Several regional airlines have already reducedtheir levels of flying, attributing it to the pilot shortage and the pilot shortage is not getting any better. Inthe relative near term it could well result in additional service cutbacks within the industry, hurting each ofthose many communities individually – including their residents and employers – and also having anegative impact on the national economy...."


    Seems you and Pedro are not on the same page!


    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    THERE. IS. NO. PILOT. SHORTAGE.

    Envoy continues to attract pipeline candidates from the partner universities in massively large numbers. You could describe it as HORDES. Every single one of them want to work for AA. Makes their choice SUPER easy. I'm sure some of you here are IN and know exactly how well this program has spun up providing some of the highest quality aviators ever seen at the Voy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    THERE. IS. NO. PILOT. SHORTAGE.

    Envoy continues to attract pipeline candidates from the partner universities in massively large numbers. You could describe it as HORDES. Every single one of them want to work for AA. Makes their choice SUPER easy. I'm sure some of you here are IN and know exactly how well this program has spun up providing some of the highest quality aviators ever seen at the Voy.

    Everybody including your own management agrees that there is....... except during contract talks. Then everything is fine and their mouthpieces are out saying, well..... pretty much what you said.

    The only places that won’t have a problem will be the majors/legacy or equivalent. Many regionals have already closed their doors or curtailed operations to a shadow of their old day numbers. They dealt with the first few years by upguaging equipment to keep similar ASM on routes. With scope, that upguaging is pretty much done now.

    Even a legacy recently said at a town town hall meeting that other than their WO, they expect only Skywest & Republic to survive the shortage as their non owned feed providers, as the rest go through bankruptcy asset sales, mergers and consolidations.

    Funny, I think I said that five-six years ago that was how it would play out. Now you’ve got VP’s of legacies finally admitting it.... then their town hall video got pulled.
    __________________________________________________ __

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    Bummer, I’d have liked to see that town hall meeting.

    And Beagle, what’s your background? I’m curious that’s all. I’m guessing it was Eagle then a flow to AA with a retirement from there recently? Nothing ill-willed here, I just like to know where everyones perspective is here.

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