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Thread: Is the pay raise a trap?

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    Registered User NoOtPilot's Avatar
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    Is the pay raise a trap?


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    2019 all 3 WO get a pay raise.(no strings attached)

    2020 all WO get PBS, Premium pay goes away & New reserve and work rules.(The Concessions)

    In return, an increase in flow (so the union can sell the deal, and convince you to take it) a flow that is set to stop in 2021 and thereafter.

    In case you don’t know, the money you lose with PBS returns to AAG with interest, and that’s how they get their money back.

    This pay raise could be, just an investment from the company (a Band Aid) or maybe a trap?

    PSA Pilots believe is coming. (Summer 2020)

    “Nothing in life is ever free.”

    “Everyone's entitled to their opinion”
    Last edited by NoOtPilot; 04-10-2019 at 07:21 AM.

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    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    PBS sucks

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    PBS sucks
    Under control of AAG, yes.

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    Keep the line bidding so you can bid conflicts and extra vacation time with DTS. It was easily an extra 10k/yr

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdflyer View Post
    Keep the line bidding so you can bid conflicts and extra vacation time with DTS. It was easily an extra 10k/yr
    I see nothing to stop the MEC from giving PBS to management, especially if it gives more tailwind to those in the MEC who want to flow. By most admissions, the whole point.........actually, the ONLY point of even coming to Envoy is to flow to AA, so it would make sense for them to rationalize another concession that others have to foot the bill for as opposed to themselves. History proves this is not new. Why on God’s Earth would any MEC give seniority rights and benefits to pilots not even on property or seniority list ?

    The answer is obvious.

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    An update on PSA...

    In active negotiations regarding implementation of PBS
    IATA code: OH; ICAO code: JIA; ATC call sign: "Bluestreak"
    This page was last updated: April 9, 2019 (Quicktake, Pilots, Fleet, Pay Notes)

    With PBS, company will get the pay raise money back.

    Agreed, The answer is obvious.
    Last edited by NoOtPilot; 04-10-2019 at 07:24 AM.

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    We already gave management PBS in 2012 with the bankruptcy contract. Wasn’t it something like we owe them $9 million in contract concessions if we decide against PBS after they get it set up and we vote on it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by echoecho View Post
    We already gave management PBS in 2012 with the bankruptcy contract. Wasn’t it something like we owe them $9 million in contract concessions if we decide against PBS after they get it set up and we vote on it?
    Sounds like they value the savings PBS at $9 million. The fact is PBS does more with less, thus less pilots needed. The key is not only controlling parameters, but pairings as well. At TWA, scheduling worked very well. At AA, by many accounts it has resulted in a poor outcome due to lack of controls by pilots. Although there are exceptions, usually those senior in status do reasonably well much of the time, those not get hit or miss and those junior get nothing. Predictability is non-existent.

    Good luck to all here, but IMO the Gumby patrol is ripe for another bend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Sounds like they value the savings PBS at $9 million. The fact is PBS does more with less, thus less pilots needed. The key is not only controlling parameters, but pairings as well. At TWA, scheduling worked very well. At AA, by many accounts it has resulted in a poor outcome due to lack of controls by pilots. Although there are exceptions, usually those senior in status do reasonably well much of the time, those not get hit or miss and those junior get nothing. Predictability is non-existent.

    Good luck to all here, but IMO the Gumby patrol is ripe for another bend.
    Seriously, you are the most vile and disgusting human being I've ever come across.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Seriously, you are the most vile and disgusting human being I've ever come across.
    LOF’nL !

    My, my.....more foam. I make a simple non-emotional statement regarding the realities of PBS and you crap your fur. Too funny......
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 04-10-2019 at 09:53 AM.

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    What would he know about PBS, he's on sa. Besides would not believe someone not overriding PBS for him to get great line. Sell out is a sell out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    What would he know about PBS, he's on sa. Besides would not believe someone not overriding PBS for him to get great line. Sell out is a sell out.
    Looks like he tipped his tail on what project he is working on against line pilots. Explosive outbursts of emotion tend to signify a vulnerability. Not good for a management wannabe as they prefer those who have a good poker snout. As such, I predict Mongo never rise above pawn in game of life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by echoecho View Post
    We already gave management PBS in 2012 with the bankruptcy contract. Wasn’t it something like we owe them $9 million in contract concessions if we decide against PBS after they get it set up and we vote on it?
    The concessions were valued at $5M
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    The concessions were valued at $5M
    $5M based on what, 3300 pilots at the time? Then when it was supposed to be implemented (2014???), we were down to what, 2K pilots? So the burden of $5M in concessions on a substantially smaller pilot group, had the company forced us to vote in PBS or pay the concessions, would have been astronomical. I think they knew we would vote it down at the time, and forcing $5M concessions after we had just given them a 2nd round of concessions in a 2 year period, would pretty much have shattered what was left of our already fragile pilot group at that time. Plus, they likely saved this PBS implementation for a better day. Get the pilot group up over 3300 pilots, then implement it, and they save well over $5M, OR use it as negotiating leverage against the pilot group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Griff312 View Post
    $5M based on what, 3300 pilots at the time? Then when it was supposed to be implemented (2014???), we were down to what, 2K pilots? So the burden of $5M in concessions on a substantially smaller pilot group, had the company forced us to vote in PBS or pay the concessions, would have been astronomical. I think they knew we would vote it down at the time, and forcing $5M concessions after we had just given them a 2nd round of concessions in a 2 year period, would pretty much have shattered what was left of our already fragile pilot group at that time. Plus, they likely saved this PBS implementation for a better day. Get the pilot group up over 3300 pilots, then implement it, and they save well over $5M, OR use it as negotiating leverage against the pilot group.
    Based on nothing.

    It was fairy dust. An illusion. Second cousin to Harvey the Rabbit. It was all subterfuge in that they used the guise of AA's bankruptcy (an engineered one that dragged in Eagle) as a convenient time to squeeze Eagle (Envoy) pilots for concessions. The only way to do that was convince them they'd get more in an 1113 filing (HIGHLY unlikely). Most importantly IMO, they needed some to help to sell that to the pilot group and it was ALPA to the rescue. It worked for ALPA too as they would have spent significant money defending you for very little payoff. Unlike AA pilots who did have some items like retirement that was likely at risk, Envoy pilots were already cheap and had no contribution to AMR's bankruptcy excuses. None. There was a strong clue at the time. It was ?

    It was the fact AMR actually filed an 1113 against AA's pilots Green Book BEFORE breaking out the stick, whereas with Eagle pilots IIRC, there was no filing, simply a threat. If they were serious about 1113ing you, they would have put some weight on the stick like they did with AA pilots before offering the carrot. I think AMR knew Eagle pilots were mostly young, unschooled pushovers and ALPA was compliant in assistance by consistent demonstration in the past, so it was a good gamble that paid off quite nicely. Sadly, did ALPA learn from that ? Nope. After that, they threw more gas on the impotent representational bonfire by giving even more concessions to help Envoy get pilots in the door and those concessions were borne mostly by career Envoy pilots who got little for giving not only the newer and more junior increased pay, seniority benefits, healthcare and flow, but even to those not even on the seniority list.

    ...and I was just accused of being a "union buster" ?
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 04-10-2019 at 04:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Griff312 View Post
    $5M based on what, 3300 pilots at the time? Then when it was supposed to be implemented (2014???), we were down to what, 2K pilots? So the burden of $5M in concessions on a substantially smaller pilot group, had the company forced us to vote in PBS or pay the concessions, would have been astronomical. I think they knew we would vote it down at the time, and forcing $5M concessions after we had just given them a 2nd round of concessions in a 2 year period, would pretty much have shattered what was left of our already fragile pilot group at that time. Plus, they likely saved this PBS implementation for a better day. Get the pilot group up over 3300 pilots, then implement it, and they save well over $5M, OR use it as negotiating leverage against the pilot group.

    You’d have to ask the snack pack what it was based on.... I always thought it was mystery math based upon targets easily controlled and manipulated by the company far too easily.
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    “Mystery math”? Like how they came up with the 824 number, and how it just so happened to barely encompass the most junior of the union officers at the time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirsnacksalot View Post
    “Mystery math”? Like how they came up with the 824 number, and how it just so happened to barely encompass the most junior of the union officers at the time?
    Not just the “snack pack”. In 1997, the then ALPA MEC came up with a provision in Letter 3 that allowed the first 125 pilots to flow after an 18 month lock-in vs. 24 months. Considering the make-up of the MEC at the time who would have the vote on Letter 3, that number corresponded perfectly to ensure passage. AMR knew JUST how to play to the ALPA MEC and considering the intervening years, they haven’t lost their touch.

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    The good news is our negotiator is not an ATP with 1,500 hours, now he has 1,600.

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