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Thread: Omni Window Open

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    Super Moderator Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloosky View Post
    Am I reading it wrong, or are you off at home only 12 days out of the month?
    It's actually 13 days home that month, the OVLC on day one is the over ride day they never use. The SC day the next day is the commute in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    Off since the 23rd and donít go back until May 12th.... no vacation time used either. Happens almost every month over transition if you bid right... next month best I can do is 14 straight off though, except I will use a little vacation to dump the first trip.
    Used to get excited at Eagle to get 7-8 days off together over transition.......... now, that would be a bad month.
    Seems that our resident Yoda just can't help himself when trying to sell his new company. You 'say' you appreciate other viewpoints and opinions but after you sold your *** off with 2.5/6, you are now pitted against the previous company you held so dear. Seems that maybe you even said that "Envoy is the best deal out there if you want to get to American." And maybe I remember this one, "Delta and United are great but with the retirements, American is the carrier you want to go to hands down."

    Face it. You've gone from selling Rolex watches at Tiffany's in New York to selling cheap knockoffs on the street corner out of your trench coat in Cleveland. That's MY opinion and guarantee you it's the opinion of 90% of our pilots here. Nobody wants to work for a fly by night ACMI carrier with a handful of aircraft and bottom of the barrel everything. The pipeline guys here came to fly for American Airlines. I'm sorry you were trapped in the lost decade and lost your chance. But let's face it. It is what it is and your constant attempts here to put lipstick on your brand new pig aren't winning anyone over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Seems that our resident Yoda just can't help himself when trying to sell his new company. You 'say' you appreciate other viewpoints and opinions but after you sold your *** off with 2.5/6, you are now pitted against the previous company you held so dear. Seems that maybe you even said that "Envoy is the best deal out there if you want to get to American." And maybe I remember this one, "Delta and United are great but with the retirements, American is the carrier you want to go to hands down."

    Face it. You've gone from selling Rolex watches at Tiffany's in New York to selling cheap knockoffs on the street corner out of your trench coat in Cleveland. That's MY opinion and guarantee you it's the opinion of 90% of our pilots here. Nobody wants to work for a fly by night ACMI carrier with a handful of aircraft and bottom of the barrel everything. The pipeline guys here came to fly for American Airlines. I'm sorry you were trapped in the lost decade and lost your chance. But let's face it. It is what it is and your constant attempts here to put lipstick on your brand new pig aren't winning anyone over.
    Speaking of lipsticked Swine, IMO Envoy is little more then a faÁade for getting to AA. Yes, in theory it might be considered one of the better ways, but in current practicality, one has to serve a fairly painful sentence to get that parole and upwards of 6 years or likely longer. Actually, considering the obstacles and risks that AA has that virtually no other carrier has, that "better way" is becoming less likely by the month if you're on the bottom half (or more) of the Envoy pilot seniority list. As it stands now, that "parole" is to a carrier that trails the majority of the industry be it legacy, LCC or premium freight in compensation, QWL and treatment. Sounds like Cujo's outfit is superior to AA in treatment, at least equal in QWL to many AA pilots and only slightly behind in pay. If they are so inferior to AA as you claim, either they have made monsterous strides forward or AA has fallen into a flat spin. One area I'll bet his outfit blows away AA in is in job security, at least in comparison to the bottom 20% of AA.

    No one out there now is in worse shape then AA in that regard and it makes their pilot retirement schedule assumptions of benefitting junior AA pilots virtually meaningless. Personally, I think Envoy is beyond lipstick (AA too). It's the smell. So far, nothing out there can mask that obvious odor. It smells like...………………...failure. There's nothing like the smell of failure in the morning.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 04-29-2019 at 03:53 PM.

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    Hey Spooge EAT A BAG OF DICKS and STFU.

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    Cujo, are you guys down a plane or two, all I have been doing the last 12 days is Omni flying.

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    Super Moderator Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
    Cujo, are you guys down a plane or two, all I have been doing the last 12 days is Omni flying.
    2 777’s went in for unscheduled mx at once. 767 guys are flying extra to cover as much as possible, but the stuff we can’t is getting shopped out. Enjoy, it’s a better schedule.... or at least it should be.

    They won’t tell the DOD no, so they’ll farm it out even at a loss to keep the DOD on schedule. Our 767 guys normally only get 25-45 hours, this month many are going over guarantee.

    we have the staffing on the 767 for more hulls, which is leading to lots of speculation. We’re over 310 pilots now. Over 100 more than this time last year.
    Last edited by Cujo665; 05-04-2019 at 06:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    2 777’s went in for unscheduled mx at once. 767 guys are flying extra to cover as much as possible, but the stuff we can’t is getting shopped out. Enjoy, it’s a better schedule.... or at least it should be.

    They won’t tell the DOD no, so they’ll farm it out even at a loss to keep the DOD on schedule. Our 767 guys normally only get 25-45 hours, this month many are going over guarantee.

    we have the staffing on the 767 for more hulls, which is leading to lots of speculation. We’re over 310 pilots now. Over 100 more than this time last year.
    Scope?
    Last edited by Meatloaf; 05-04-2019 at 10:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    2 777’s went in for unscheduled mx at once. 767 guys are flying extra to cover as much as possible, but the stuff we can’t is getting shopped out. Enjoy, it’s a better schedule.... or at least it should be.

    They won’t tell the DOD no, so they’ll farm it out even at a loss to keep the DOD on schedule. Our 767 guys normally only get 25-45 hours, this month many are going over guarantee.

    we have the staffing on the 767 for more hulls, which is leading to lots of speculation. We’re over 310 pilots now. Over 100 more than this time last year.
    Thanks, it is far from a better schedule, at least we stay at the nicest hotel in Limerick, still a poop hole and I get a CA bottle on the way out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meatloaf View Post
    Scope?
    All most zero scope in the ACMI world, Atlas is the only one with a little scope and it only covers the pax flying, we are trying to add scope in our next CBA, but K4 and Omni didn't help us with their CBAs.

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    Super Moderator Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meatloaf View Post
    Scope?
    Not a scope issue when itís unsched MX. Then it becomes keep the client happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meatloaf View Post
    Scope?
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
    All most zero scope in the ACMI world, Atlas is the only one with a little scope and it only covers the pax flying, we are trying to add scope in our next CBA, but K4 and Omni didn't help us with their CBAs.
    We don’t do cargo, so we’ve never had the issues you other guys have. With us starting cargo ops on the 777 side it is something that will need to be addressed. Our scope is more geared to preventing transfer of equipment to other carriers. It’s one of the weakest areas in the CBA from what I can see
    Last edited by Cujo665; 05-05-2019 at 06:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
    Thanks, it is far from a better schedule, at least we stay at the nicest hotel in Limerick, still a poop hole and I get a CA bottle on the way out.
    I’m surprised; when I fly gen pop I typically sit long call in cities all over the place and fly a little, DH a little. End up with 25-45 block for the month usually.

    they do not like farming it outand losing direct control of the product.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
    All most zero scope in the ACMI world, Atlas is the only one with a little scope and it only covers the pax flying, we are trying to add scope in our next CBA, but K4 and Omni didn't help us with their CBAs.
    Scope is important to any pilot group, but IMO your cost structure and mission is unlikely to be outsourced to cheaper outfits, especially with the pilot shortage. ACMI carriers have risk of losing pilots to legacy and LCC carriers in the future as they too become part of the pilot shortage issue and become less restrictive in their qualifications, so to maintain their businesses they’ll have no choice to become competitive or lose more pilots. I don’t think they are that stupid.

    This would likely mean trying to provide as much pay and QWL as possible as well as stability. Outsourcing and whipsawing will only hurt their businesses, not help them. If pilots were a dime-a-dozen like the old days, then yes, they would do that. Speaking of stupid on the opposite end of that spectrum, AAG and Envoy are still in denial and live in the past. They still refuse to believe they have to truly invest in their pilots (actually ALL front-line labor) and still to an excessive degree think they aren’t vulnerable.

    Most everyone else is opposite of the dysfunctional AAG and that is a major reason why when AAG finally realizes they’d have been better off following the crowd on this like other things, it will be too late. Actually, I think it is already too late and they’ve gone too far down the rabbit hole now. AA’s entire front-line labor are all alienated, disinterested and unmotivated and the product sucks. Same could be said for Envoy. The only way to reverse that now requires not just industry leading compensation and work rules, but a 180 on management philosophy and treatment. Regarding the first issue, they don’t have the money and are broke considering future bills and present debt and the latter seems to be out of their DNA.

    No way up the rabbit hole now IMO. Not even bankruptcy which will trim debt, sure, but only poison the product well further. I see no real way for AAG management to ever turn AA into a truly competitive product now. It is forever doomed to mediocrity and its inevitable byproduct of instability.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-05-2019 at 09:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Scope is important to any pilot group, but IMO your cost structure and mission is unlikely to be outsourced to cheaper outfits, especially with the pilot shortage. ACMI carriers have risk of losing pilots to legacy and LCC carriers in the future as they too become part of the pilot shortage issue and become less restrictive in their qualifications, so to maintain their businesses they’ll have no choice to become competitive or lose more pilots. I don’t think they are that stupid.

    This would likely mean trying to provide as much pay and QWL as possible as well as stability. Outsourcing and whipsawing will only hurt their businesses, not help them. If pilots were a dime-a-dozen like the old days, then yes, they would do that. Speaking of stupid on the opposite end of that spectrum, AAG and Envoy are still in denial and live in the past. They still refuse to believe they have to truly invest in their pilots (actually ALL front-line labor) and still to an excessive degree think they aren’t vulnerable.

    Most everyone else is opposite of the dysfunctional AAG and that is a major reason why when AAG finally realizes they’d have been better off following the crowd on this like other things, it will be too late. Actually, I think it is already too late and they’ve gone too far down the rabbit hole now. AA’s entire front-line labor are all alienated, disinterested and unmotivated and the product sucks. Same could be said for Envoy. The only way to reverse that now requires not just industry leading compensation and work rules, but a 180 on management philosophy and treatment. Regarding the first issue, they don’t have the money and are broke considering future bills and present debt and the latter seems to be out of their DNA.

    No way up the rabbit hole now IMO. Not even bankruptcy which will trim debt, sure, but only poison the product well further. I see no real way for AAG management to ever turn AA into a truly competitive product now. It is forever doomed to mediocrity and its inevitable byproduct of instability.
    On the cargo side there will always be outsourcing because of peak and slot restricted airports, that goes from Fedex and UPS also. Where scope becomes important is how limited outsourcing can be, and the monetary penalty to the company for going out side those limits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    We don’t do cargo, so we’ve never had the issues you other guys have. With us starting cargo ops on the 777 side it is something that will need to be addressed. Our scope is more geared to preventing transfer of equipment to other carriers. It’s one of the weakest areas in the CBA from what I can see
    I will believe you are starting cargo when I see you guys on the ramp in NRT, HKG or CVG. Zero slots, zero route authority and at least the first 4 of 14 are coming to Southern for now, but have GT N-numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
    On the cargo side there will always be outsourcing because of peak and slot restricted airports, that goes from Fedex and UPS also. Where scope becomes important is how limited outsourcing can be, and the monetary penalty to the company for going out side those limits.
    Who do the ACMI operators outsource to ? If anything, they are the niche FedEx and UPS outsource to and Amazon is gearing up to be its own thing and not likely to get outsourced nor beaten by the top cargo players. Is there another cargo rung below the 2nd tier cargo/charter companies flying widebodies like the ACMI or similar operators (non FedEx/UPS) ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Who do the ACMI operators outsource to ? If anything, they are the niche FedEx and UPS outsource to and Amazon is gearing up to be its own thing and not likely to get outsourced nor beaten by the top cargo players. Is there another cargo rung below the 2nd tier cargo/charter companies flying widebodies like the ACMI or similar operators (non FedEx/UPS) ?
    They outsource to other ACMI airlines. Air21, Swift, WGA are what I would call the last to be used, they fight over lower margin flying. Amazon is never going to be its own thing, they need the whipsaw to keep cost low. Fedex and UPS peak flying is very high margin flying, so it isn't uncommon for Atlas to have to outsource DHL or Polar flying so they can move planes over to Fedex and UPS during peak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
    They outsource to other ACMI airlines. Air21, Swift, WGA are what I would call the last to be used, they fight over lower margin flying. Amazon is never going to be its own thing, they need the whipsaw to keep cost low. Fedex and UPS peak flying is very high margin flying, so it isn't uncommon for Atlas to have to outsource DHL or Polar flying so they can move planes over to Fedex and UPS during peak.
    So you're saying all the ACMI carriers will be forcing their pilots to accept concessions to keep flying (whipsawing) ? In other words, using the old Eagle style method of forcing lower and lower pay and benefits on their pilots ? I don't see how that will keep the one commodity (pilots) in short supply filled. I can see shifting of flying for logistical issues like you allude to, but traditional whipsawing is meant to ratchet pilot costs downward and that would be counter-productive to any given ACMI carrier's survival, especially if they want to keep pilots in the future.

    Curious to see Cujo's take on his carrier's management coming for concessions "or else".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post

    Curious to see Cujo's take on his carrier's management coming for concessions "or else".


    One of the reasons I preferred Omni was they really do not have serious competition in the supplemental PAX market. I had hoped we'd stay out of cargo actually, even if it does mean more planes. Right now ATSG is leaving us alone; they just put an Omni officer on the ATSG BOD, and have had an ATSG person in Tulsa learning how we do things, so they can replicate the high completion factor. Their most recent filings and news releases say that Omni is extremely profitable as is, and they have no intention of messing up a good thing.

    Time will tell. This is a very good company to work for, hopefully it stays that way.
    Last edited by Cujo665; 05-06-2019 at 05:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    One of the reasons I preferred Omni was they really do not have serious competition in the supplemental PAX market. I had hoped we'd stay out of cargo actually, even if it does mean more planes. Right now ATSG is leaving us alone; they just put an Omni officer on the ATSG BOD, and have had an ATSG person in Tulsa learning how we do things, so they can replicate the high completion factor. Their most recent filings and news releases say that Omni is extremely profitable as is, and they have no intention of messing up a good thing.

    Time will tell. This is a very good company to work for, hopefully it stays that way.

    You preferred Omni because they hired you, it is well known you interviewed at my shop and didn't get the call. As far as not having serious competition, you have 8 planes for the supplemental PAX market after you take out the 2 for HV and the 2 for the program, Swift Air has a fleet of almost 30 and does more supplemental than both Omni and Atlas. Atlas has 14 planes counting the 3 VIP planes that can do supplemental lift.

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