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Thread: Envoy dead last...

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    Registered User NoOtPilot's Avatar
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    Envoy dead last...


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    I always tell the truth. Even when I lie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    Oh.....I was expecting yet another industry performance report. But, well...………….I guess that will cover the fly-by's on this issue as well. The SOS (Snake Oil Salesmen) should be along shortly crowing about lack of facts while (as usual) providing none themselves.

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    But....But THE FLOW!!!

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    Joined APC: Sep 2010
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    Read the most current email from the Union and this should show the companies true colors to all the new hires and those looking to come here.....

    For those not yet on property....The company refuses to negotiate in good faith on new reserve rule language to replace our old, outdated language. They demand that we all take more concessions for any improvement, even when we have the worst rules in the industry. They even threatened the Union with an ultimatum to continue negotiating.

    STOP APPLYING HERE, DONT COME HERE UNLESS YOU LIKE TO BE ABUSED

    Dacuj what do you say? Can't wait to here your false spin on this one.

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    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    Dacuj is anf'n moron. He has proven this countless of times. AAG dictates here, and aag want pay cuts and benefit reductions so aag can show a better bottom line.
    The race to the bottom started the day AAG was born and they took the fastest and shortest route to the bottom.
    Welcome to the new hires, your bonuses wont last long but poverty will last longer. Your flow wont happen ( if it happens) until you are in complete debt.
    American needs the flows because the OTS hires are leaving aa during training for greener pastures. There training department is imploding, almost as ours is.
    But hey, shi+ treatment, poor qol, horrible schedules, industry bottom pay and a flow to AA is what you're looking for then this is the purgatory for your.
    Come on down, were waiting for you.

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    Registered User Dacuj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiz5422 View Post
    Joined APC: Sep 2010
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    Read the most current email from the Union and this should show the companies true colors to all the new hires and those looking to come here.....

    For those not yet on property....The company refuses to negotiate in good faith on new reserve rule language to replace our old, outdated language. They demand that we all take more concessions for any improvement, even when we have the worst rules in the industry. They even threatened the Union with an ultimatum to continue negotiating.

    STOP APPLYING HERE, DONT COME HERE UNLESS YOU LIKE TO BE ABUSED

    Dacuj what do you say? Can't wait to here your false spin on this one.
    What do I have to say? Well, there are all kinds of liars and spinmeisters out there. This obviously is another pathetic attempt by Joey or one the 3 people in his contingent of groupies. Read the majority of posts in the Envoy thread on APC. They are overwhelmingly positive and everybody is happy about the flow and about working at Envoy.

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    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    Your are clueless at best. Here and apc all are saying the truth except the management and those chicken shi+ sa pilots.
    Currently 29 flow per month but 50 per attrition. In other words 21 pilots get mainline jobs well in advance of waiting for 6 year flow to the cheapest LCC. Those 21 per month are at least 4 years higher on the seniority than waiting to be at the bottom of the list at a cheap
    Envoy duplicate airline.
    Keep taking your medication. APA is closing in on you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    What do I have to say? Well, there are all kinds of liars and spinmeisters out there. This obviously is another pathetic attempt by Joey or one the 3 people in his contingent of groupies. Read the majority of posts in the Envoy thread on APC. They are overwhelmingly positive and everybody is happy about the flow and about working at Envoy.
    HA ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

    Your reading comprehension is lacking. Or you just choose to not see what is written. APC has a whole thread talking about this crap and No one is speaking positively.

    Again you are proving how big of a Moron you are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    What do I have to say? Well, there are all kinds of liars and spinmeisters out there. This obviously is another pathetic attempt by Joey or one the 3 people in his contingent of groupies. Read the majority of posts in the Envoy thread on APC. They are overwhelmingly positive and everybody is happy about the flow and about working at Envoy.
    It is some of them (like you) who are also the Roger Stone “dirty tricksters” spinning fake news, Mongo. You just suck at it more.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 01-26-2019 at 08:15 PM.

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    Rumor has it that the collapse of negotiations between Envoy ALPA and Envoy management on fair reserve provisions has hit AA C & R. Apparently, Envoy management is flipping the bird to Envoy pilots demanding they take more concessions on top of their bankruptcy contract at a time when AAG is rolling in profits.

    What more can be said ?

    Is this indicative of a “collaborative” culture ? Again, IMO the past is the present and the future is thus the past. “Team members” ? Wake up, folks. If both AA and Envoy pilots are getting rammed in these supposedly flush economic times, can you imagine what happens when the ship is taking on water and nosing below the waterline ?

    Ugh.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 01-26-2019 at 11:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Rumor has it that the collapse of negotiations between Envoy ALPA and Envoy management on fair reserve provisions has hit AA C & R. Apparently, Envoy management is flipping the bird to Envoy pilots demanding they take more concessions on top of their bankruptcy contract at a time when AAG is rolling...
    Confirmed

  12. #12
    Super Moderator Cujo665's Avatar
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    ATTENTION ALL PILOTS


    January 25, 2019

    Fellow Pilots,


    It has become apparent during recent negotiations that the Company has no intention of providing our pilot group with any significant reserve system improvements in the foreseeable future. Until today, the Association and the Company had been in negotiations since June regarding the most recent iteration of reserve rule changes. The original premise of these negotiations was not a cost neutral agreement, but rather that the Company and pilots would realize mutual benefit from investment in increased efficiency, pilot recruitment, and morale.


    During a meeting in late September, the Company’s representatives advised the Negotiating Committee that they were prepared to move on to draft language reflecting the most recent bullet points which had been agreed to. Draft contract language was transmitted to the Company on October 1, 2018. After eight weeks without any correspondence from the Company, the Association inquired about the progress of the draft language. In December, the Company reached out to the Association to resume reserve system negotiation meetings in January.


    On January 10, 2019, the Company and Association met to continue negotiations on reserve language. The Company presented revised language which exposed significant differences between the parties’ interpretations of the bullet points that had resulted from previous negotiating sessions. Further, the Company’s January 10 proposal included new, previously undiscussed, concessions to OT rules which they expected the Association to accept as part of a new reserve agreement in order to offset reserve system costs at the pilots’ expense. They made this proposal without providing any cost analysis for our review on either the reserve system changes or the newly proposed OT rules concessions.


    The Company’s demand of substantial concessions in exchange for a deal to improve and modernize our reserve rules was a clear indication that the Company had lost interest in concluding these negotiations. The value of their offer had regressed as management changed its stance on items for which mutual good faith understandings already existed. Beyond those factors, a Company representative threatened ongoing negotiations by demanding an acknowledgement of the Company’s interpretation regarding a pending grievance as a precondition for continued negotiations. Essentially, they demanded that we give up a pending scheduling grievance, and the interests of pilots who had been harmed, in exchange for keeping reserve talks open.


    As a result of these actions by Company representatives, the Association today transmitted to the Company a letter informing them that we strongly disagree with their interpretation, but that we are prepared to continue reserve negotiations should they rescind their ultimatum.


    In response, the Company has now ceased negotiations with the Association regarding reserve system changes. We will be focusing our energy on continuing to educate pilots about our pending scheduling and reserve system grievance issues, as well as keeping you updated on career advancement opportunities.


    The Company’s decision to withdraw from reserve negotiations is disappointing, especially in view of the huge need to modernize our reserve system and as we see other AAG wholly-owned carriers being offered enhancements to compensation and quality of life. We also find it disappointing that the Company chooses to pursue cost savings at our pilots’ expense rather than investing in the pilot group while AAG continues to produce impressive profits. Management’s decision to demand concessions in this market is illogical, unexpected, and unacceptable.


    We will continue to advocate on your behalf to the Company. Unfortunately, our management team fails to recognize the benefit that long needed improvements to our paychecks and quality of life could have on schedules, pilot recruitment, and morale.





    In Unity,





    Your Envoy MEC
    It is Unchanged since 2008. They “negotiate” so they can defend against any claims of failing to bargain in good faith. They have zero intention of fixing what works for them so long as classes are full. They’ve been given enough bandaids to make that happen. Most of the facilitators have flowed.
    __________________________________________________ __

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    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    My problem with all, is, flow is not working as a standalone program. It requires massive bonuses to entice someone to envoy and flow is insurance policy.
    All that money waisted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    It is Unchanged since 2008. They “negotiate” so they can defend against any claims of failing to bargain in good faith. They have zero intention of fixing what works for them so long as classes are full. They’ve been given enough bandaids to make that happen. Most of the facilitators have flowed.
    Bullseye. It also led to a very predictable outcome once the bandaids didn’t work anymore.

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    Reading APC, specifically the thread by the guy asking about Envoy's contract, it appears all is indeed not well among many of the Envoy pilots who arrived recently. I'm surprised nobody suggested to him that even if he gets a copy of the CBA and can read it, from what is being said, many of the provisions are violated with impunity and thus even WITH certain language explaining or defining something, it appears to be of little value. I suppose it might make a fair doorstop though.

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