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Thread: JANUARY 2018 Schedules.

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    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    JANUARY 2018 Schedules.


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    As usual, just a more shi+ sandwich. really want to thank the union reps who flowing for fighting for better schedules.
    two day back to back early starts, three day trips early start and late finishes.
    Really did not realize the e175 had so many local people in ord.
    Sir, can I have another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    As usual, just a more shi+ sandwich. really want to than the union reps flowing for fighting.
    I seem to recall sometime in the past (it was at least 2-3 years ago) that Envoy pilots were promised their schedules would improve once more mid-day flying was reassigned to the expanding and important Envoy. The claim (at least then) was the critical mid-day flying was going to operators with E-175’s and when Envoy’s fleet caught up, so would the quality of the schedules.

    Oh well...............maybe in a few years the 2/3 of Envoy pilots not flying the crown jewel will see some light when they are allowed to bid a plane that is reserved for the ultra senior or CFI’s not on the Envoy pilots seniority list. This assumes the E-175 schedules there are decent, of course. If not..........well, scrap the 2/3 and go for the clean sweep.

    Siwwy piwots........they never wearn.

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    Some of is knew it was union bull.
    Skw, 18 days off 90 hour lines.
    But envoy 14 days off at 74 hours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Some of is knew it was union bull.
    Skw, 18 days off 90 hour lines.
    But envoy 14 days off at 74 hours.
    Yes, no doubt many knew, especially those that have heard this tune before. But, that’s the music the AA flow conga line dances to and they need their music. It’s all they have. No singing that the music sucks allowed, just keep that dance train circling around the room in the hope your place in line gets trimmed off before the music stops.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    As usual, just a more shi+ sandwich. really want to thank the union reps who flowing for fighting for better schedules.
    two day back to back early starts, three day trips early start and late finishes.
    Really did not realize the e175 had so many local people in ord.
    Just what is it you find so offenssive. Most mid day flying has returned as promised and schedules continue to improve. You will always have a few complainers that are never happy no matter what. Yeah, like you.

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    You have clearly not seen January's bid packets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Griff312 View Post
    You have clearly not seen January's bid packets.
    Clearly I have seen them. You ever hear of slow months? Like summer is peak months, January is slow. Can't always have 100% of what YOU want. Schedules are 500 times better than 3 and 4 years ago. You got most everything you were asking for back then. Stop the freaking complaining.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    Clearly I have seen them. You ever hear of slow months? Like summer is peak months, January is slow. Can't always have 100% of what YOU want. Schedules are 500 times better than 3 and 4 years ago. You got most everything you were asking for back then. Stop the freaking complaining.
    Abbreviated version of the above: The beatings will continue until morale improves.

    Isn’t it odd other carriers are apparently able to deliver a consistent scheduling product to their pilots, yet Envoy even now with supposedly the very excuse of the past corrected (mid-day flying), STILL can’t meet that standard ? Bottom line; Little is likely to change except the excuse du jour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    Clearly I have seen them. You ever hear of slow months? Like summer is peak months, January is slow. Can't always have 100% of what YOU want. Schedules are 500 times better than 3 and 4 years ago. You got most everything you were asking for back then. Stop the freaking complaining.
    Was hired about 8 years ago and trust me the lines back then EVEN in Janurary which you call a slow month were night and day different then they are now
    They were much better. These lines still suck with little or no improvement since those emails.

    Like all you minions, you lack a sense of reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    As usual, just a more shi+ sandwich. really want to thank the union reps who flowing for fighting for better schedules.
    two day back to back early starts, three day trips early start and late finishes.
    Really did not realize the e175 had so many local people in ord.
    Do you live in Dallas? Would you please run for a union position? We need the lifers to get involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meatloaf View Post
    Do you live in Dallas? Would you please run for a union position? We need the lifers to get involved.
    We really do need more lifers involved.

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    As Wiz said; also hired 8 years ago. I was holding a better schedule, even in Jan, as a 1 year (80 percentile in base) FO, than I am now as a 8 yr CA, bidding in the 20-percentile range. It is what it is, but I feel sorry for the guy that gets the 72 hour, 12 days off, 6 sequence line next month.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    I seem to recall sometime in the past (it was at least 2-3 years ago) that Envoy pilots were promised their schedules would improve once more mid-day flying was reassigned to the expanding and important Envoy. The claim (at least then) was the critical mid-day flying was going to operators with E-175’s and when Envoy’s fleet caught up, so would the quality of the schedules.

    Oh well...............maybe in a few years the 2/3 of Envoy pilots not flying the crown jewel will see some light when they are allowed to bid a plane that is reserved for the ultra senior or CFI’s not on the Envoy pilots seniority list. This assumes the E-175 schedules there are decent, of course. If not..........well, scrap the 2/3 and go for the clean sweep.

    Siwwy piwots........they never wearn.
    First it was due to base closures
    Then it was the Pairing Software was old
    Then it was the Scheduling software was old
    Then it was 117 duty times impacting schedules
    Then it was new employees at the company still learning
    Then it was new volunteers at the union still learning
    Then it was mid day flying is too thin
    Then it was the winter slowdown
    Then it was planes transferring to PSA/PDT shifting the flying around
    Then it was vendors getting first choice on pairings
    Then it was the flight file from AA was poor
    Then it was due to base openings and vacancies
    Then it was.....

    well, you get the idea.
    Last edited by Cujo665; 12-17-2018 at 10:48 AM.
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    At the risk of being "that guy..."

    I too remember the schedules of 8 years of yesteryear.

    But, fiddlesticks... for real, how quickly we forget. 3 factors that have had MASSIVE impact on our schedules within those 8 years - from which, we have yet to fully recover.

    November 15, 2012
    Skywest and Expressjet begin FFD operations for AMR; followed shortly by Republic.
    American Eagle's (soon to be Envoy-ed) share of AMR FFD flying rapidly falls from ~90% to 25-30% as more and more non-wholly owned FFD airlines are added to the AMR/AAG portfolio. NWHs get their flying first each month, then MQ. And, last dibs at that... we bat cleanup...

    January 4, 2014
    Mandatory implementation of FAR 117. In truth and practice, AMR/AAG implements the new rules MONTHS in advance (which is why I have it 2nd in this timeline of misery).
    Minimum rest increased from 8 hours to 10.
    Safer? Absolutely. Would I go back? No. Less efficient? Obviously.
    Lost day in wherever-the-heck because you got in after 22:00? Check the travel planner. Bet you would have been legal for the following days AM flight pre-117. Enjoy your DAILY lost day in YUL that AAG refuses to adjust to make the crews legal (one example of many).

    December 9, 2013
    AA and USAir merge to form the new AAG.
    AMR senior management is gone and with it AMR's philosophy towards running an airline.
    Gone are the days of 4 flights to XYZ, same equipment, same 6 days of the week. An approach that lent itself to great schedules...truly great...phenomenal...with those repetitive pairings we loved so much. AAG signs your checks now, and they run a completely different style of offence - on offence they are constantly tweaking. Once again, check your travel planner.
    MQ has the AM and PM flights = staged crews in the hotels much higher than our peers in the industry (gee thanks), NWH has the turn at noon, AND/OR the MD80/319 has is it (but only certain months), AND/OR those flights don't exist on Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday.

    The union never promised anything. Why would you promise something you exercise little to no control over?
    They communicated the challenges the Pilots of MQ face month in and month out.

    "8 years ago we had..."
    We work in a new world with a new boss, Gents and/or Ladies.

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    Great screen name.
    For the first few months after 117 was implemented, the bid packets remained much more productive than today. They also retained variety in 1,2,3 and four day trips. Almost every hard line was pure 4 on 3 off with an average value of 80 hours.
    The lost mid day flying that went away as the bring on the pain tour started has for the most part returned.
    You’re correct about the union never promising anything about improving schedules, but they did give false hope by communicating that they were continuing to work with the company for more productive and better quality schedules.

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    Fact: Recruitment Dept is way behind the curve. The situation is very serious and getting extremely dangerous. Not easy to sell the flow anymore. Long lines of applicants, very few qualified. Too many busts in the training center, FAA watching.

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    A few months after FAR 117 was implemented the AMR “footprint” was still in place on the schedule file. The ground work for which is layed months in advance. MQ wasn’t down to 25-30% of the file within a few months of JAN14. These three factors hit almost simultaneously. The inefficiency from 117 was immediate, but the other two happened in more drawn out measures. The downward spiral was a gradual one throughout 2014, and 15, and 16, and... so on...

    Midday flying has returned? Ummm maybe in NY, which is why their bid packet is better than everywhere else. Otherwise, no sir(s), our staged overnights remained in the 85 -90% range throughout 2018, which is indicative of a lack of midday flying.

    Working with the Company? Yes. I believe the analogy squeezing every last bit of blood from a dry turnip was used often. Trying to come up with creative approaches to put just a little miracle whip on what is largely a dry sandwich (trying to stay PG).

    First, can we please all review the QOL items provided to us in section 10 of the CBA in terms of lines? Let’s see... max 91hours, min 72. What else is there to contractually hold the company’s feet to the fire with? Umm... Nada mucho friends. Let me know if you find something, I’ll wait...

    Second, can we please understand that the Company is 100% subservient to what they are given from the Parent Company.

    Third, can we wrap our heads around the fact that we are last in the pecking order when it comes to divying up the FFD flying - and, that perhaps, just maybe, if you ran a NWH airline and you were about to enter into a Capacity Purchase Agreement with AAG, it might behoove you to ensure that your contract stipulated your flying be productive. Hell, you might even want to specify city pairings, leg lengths, frequency, time of day, and whatever the heck else tickles your belly button, I dunno. Thus, doesn’t it stand to reason that if 8 or 9 or however many NWHs are pulling all of the productive flying out of the file, all tickling their respective bellybuttons and such...that what is left for the WHs to assemble into pairings and lines just plane sucks for the most part?

    Y’all gotta let go of the past. We may regain some ground, two steps forward one step back and such. But for the most part...
    it gone, bro-tato-chip.
    Last edited by that_guy19; 12-16-2018 at 11:50 PM. Reason: Small screen. Phat fingers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by that_guy19 View Post
    At the risk of being "that guy..."

    I too remember the schedules of 8 years of yesteryear.

    But, fiddlesticks... for real, how quickly we forget. 3 factors that have had MASSIVE impact on our schedules within those 8 years - from which, we have yet to fully recover.

    November 15, 2012
    Skywest and Expressjet begin FFD operations for AMR; followed shortly by Republic.
    American Eagle's (soon to be Envoy-ed) share of AMR FFD flying rapidly falls from ~90% to 25-30% as more and more non-wholly owned FFD airlines are added to the AMR/AAG portfolio. NWHs get their flying first each month, then MQ. And, last dibs at that... we bat cleanup...

    January 4, 2014
    Mandatory implementation of FAR 117. In truth and practice, AMR/AAG implements the new rules MONTHS in advance (which is why I have it 2nd in this timeline of misery).
    Minimum rest increased from 8 hours to 10.
    Safer? Absolutely. Would I go back? No. Less efficient? Obviously.
    Lost day in wherever-the-heck because you got in after 22:00? Check the travel planner. Bet you would have been legal for the following days AM flight pre-117. Enjoy your DAILY lost day in YUL that AAG refuses to adjust to make the crews legal (one example of many).

    December 9, 2013
    AA and USAir merge to form the new AAG.
    AMR senior management is gone and with it AMR's philosophy towards running an airline.
    Gone are the days of 4 flights to XYZ, same equipment, same 6 days of the week. An approach that lent itself to great schedules...truly great...phenomenal...with those repetitive pairings we loved so much. AAG signs your checks now, and they run a completely different style of offence - on offence they are constantly tweaking. Once again, check your travel planner.
    MQ has the AM and PM flights = staged crews in the hotels much higher than our peers in the industry (gee thanks), NWH has the turn at noon, AND/OR the MD80/319 has is it (but only certain months), AND/OR those flights don't exist on Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday.

    The union never promised anything. Why would you promise something you exercise little to no control over?
    They communicated the challenges the Pilots of MQ face month in and month out.

    "8 years ago we had..."
    We work in a new world with a new boss, Gents and/or Ladies.
    Yup, new world, new boss. ......and no shortage of new excuses. Clearly things not only haven’t improved, but have deteriorated. I see the same trajectory going forward.

    Caveat Emptor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Yup, new world, new boss. ......and no shortage of new excuses. Clearly things not only haven’t improved, but have deteriorated. I see the same trajectory going forward.

    Caveat Emptor.
    Same boss....Ric has went from being in charge of schedules to the entire flight department. I would expect nothing to change in the mean time.

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    No, schedules have improved. I usually enjoy your industry insight and your posts typically give me food for thought. As a younger(ish) man with hopefully a ways to go in this career, I do appreciate the majority of your posts. However, in this case, your assumption that things are worse is incorrect, so letÂ’s reel that back a bit.

    I was just reviewing an old post of my own (I donÂ’t chime in much) from FEB17, where I was lamenting to clueless Dacuj about the state of our schedules. At that time, I griped that ALL bases had bid packets with OVER HALF of lines containing multiple 2 day off patterns between 4D trips, no variety and very low commutability. I tried to explain to dacuj that 4 on 2 off uncommutable both trips on both ends meant we were away from home 10 days in a row, and the bid packets were littered with it. I think you know how he received that.

    Fast forward to today. Are 4 on 2 offs gone? No. Have they been reduced? Significantly.

    Do we have variety? Yes, in most bases. Is it commutable 2D and 3D trips? No, but jeez, average block per day is typically 4:30hrs for ORD 175. Do the math, the averages arenÂ’t near strong enough to support it.

    Commutability is truly lacking, canÂ’t argue that.

    Our schedules leave much to be desired. We still have a handful of 2 day off patterns in the bid packets, considerably more some months.

    Are they perfect? Hell no, H2O! Are they reminiscent of 2010? Neg-ah-tive!!! Do they lag our industry peers? Yuuuup. Is that acceptable? Nope.

    But, have they improved from 2016 and 2017?
    Undeniably.
    Last edited by that_guy19; 12-17-2018 at 11:53 AM.

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