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Thread: Attention future new hires:

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    Registered User NoOtPilot's Avatar
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    Attention future new hires:


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    Envoy vs PDT

    From a Flow Pilot:
    “In my new hire class, envoy was sending 2007 new hires while PSA flows were 2013 new hires.”
    I always tell the truth. Even when I lie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    Envoy vs PDT

    From a Flow Pilot:
    “In my new hire class, envoy was sending 2007 new hires while PSA flows were 2013 new hires.”
    And until the new hires stop coming here, the flow doesn't change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meatloaf View Post
    And until the new hires stop coming here, the flow doesn't change.
    You mean it doesn’t change in regards to it being an attractive selling point.
    In reality, the flow itself has “changed” many times.

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    The beauty for Envoy management is that they know (correctly) even if they have to slow or even stop the flow for a period of time, most pilots won't bail. A few would, but for most, it's human nature to embrace hope and promise, even if it flies in the face of rationale. If that should happen, you know they'd sugar it up with plenty of hope and promise just like the past. The more time in, the less likely the about face, unless it's to somewhere they'd bail Envoy for anyway. Virtually no pilot will move laterally from Envoy to another regional unless there is a compelling reason to, most likely domicile and commuting. Those snookered in on a contract are financially trapped and those outside are usually in too deep. Oh, there would be some screaming and such and a few dented garbage cans in the crew rooms, but that's about it.

    Most of the pilots at Envoy are actually little different from AA, that being meek mission hackers with an impotent Association that they do little to steward and police. All a playground for management and looking at the realities at both carriers and their pilots, it shows. Considering AAG is essentially broke (debt outweighs their assets), the future is all but assured. Speaking of Turkeys................Happy Turkey Day to all !

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    And we all know that the current upgrade, time to line, time on reserve, flow time etc is not indicative of what it’ll be for a new hire. Yep, some guys really hit the lottery when they got hired at PSA and PDT, quick upgrade and a 5 year flow. A few guys at envoy will be in that group too. Nobody knew they had the winning ticket when they got hired though.

    I wonder what PSA and PDT are predicting the flow date of a new hire is
    Last edited by flyinsol0; 11-21-2018 at 04:13 PM.

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    5-7 years from what I’ve heard. Over time, things will equalize across all 3 WOs as far as time served. Not sure on the percentages though...

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    Quote Originally Posted by flyinsol0 View Post
    And we all know that the current upgrade, time to line, time on reserve, flow time etc is not indicative of what it’ll be for a new hire. Yep, some guys really hit the lottery when they got hired at PSA and PDT, quick upgrade and a 5 year flow. A few guys at envoy will be in that group too. Nobody knew they had the winning ticket when they got hired though.

    I wonder what PSA and PDT are predicting the flow date of a new hire is
    A "winning ticket" isn't a winning ticket until it pays off. All pilots at Envoy have if they haven't yet flowed is an IOU. A promissory note with a 6-year maturity date in this business and most especially with this "bank" is highly questionable IMO considering the past and present.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    The beauty for Envoy management is that they know (correctly) even if they have to slow or even stop the flow for a period of time, most pilots won't bail. A few would, but for most, it's human nature to embrace hope and promise, even if it flies in the face of rationale. If that should happen, you know they'd sugar it up with plenty of hope and promise just like the past. The more time in, the less likely the about face, unless it's to somewhere they'd bail Envoy for anyway. Virtually no pilot will move laterally from Envoy to another regional unless there is a compelling reason to, most likely domicile and commuting. Those snookered in on a contract are financially trapped and those outside are usually in too deep. Oh, there would be some screaming and such and a few dented garbage cans in the crew rooms, but that's about it.

    Most of the pilots at Envoy are actually little different from AA, that being meek mission hackers with an impotent Association that they do little to steward and police. All a playground for management and looking at the realities at both carriers and their pilots, it shows. Considering AAG is essentially broke (debt outweighs their assets), the future is all but assured. Speaking of Turkeys................Happy Turkey Day to all !
    LMFAO! More complete horse poo poo. You forget that the flow is CONTRACTUAL so there won't be any stoppage thank you very much. Ever think about creating your own board game called The Flow? In your world it would start at indoc and there would be multiple paths to flow failure. Maybe even a path to Chapter 7 LOL!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    A "winning ticket" isn't a winning ticket until it pays off. All pilots at Envoy have if they haven't yet flowed is an IOU. A promissory note with a 6-year maturity date in this business and most especially with this "bank" is highly questionable IMO considering the past and present.
    So you aren't thankful for your winning ticket? News flash. Every single pilot at Envoy holds a winning ticket. On this week of Thanksgiving I'm especially thankful for Envoy, AAG, the 175 and the flow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    LMFAO! More complete horse poo poo. You forget that the flow is CONTRACTUAL so there won't be any stoppage thank you very much. Ever think about creating your own board game called The Flow? In your world it would start at indoc and there would be multiple paths to flow failure. Maybe even a path to Chapter 7 LOL!
    I can list too many "contractual" provisions that have been eliminated in various methods to mention. For NOW, it's contractual and for NOW, the flow serves a purpose. That purpose and that provision are NOT set in stone, in reality (as history proves), they are set in horse poo poo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    So you aren't thankful for your winning ticket? News flash. Every single pilot at Envoy holds a winning ticket. On this week of Thanksgiving I'm especially thankful for Envoy, AAG, the 175 and the flow.
    Again, any winning ticket I may have held wasn't a winning ticket until cashed. In fact, even with AA seniority, it wasn't cashed yet and in fact, others tried to nullify it prior to payoff. The present flow offers a fraction of the legal weight of Letter 3. Being ONLY contractual, it can much more easily be rendered "null, void and of no further force and effect". It's a promissory IOU. Nothing more, nothing less.

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    Others meaning eagle/envoy alpa mec

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    Yep, some guys at PDT and PSA have gotten to cash their ticket. In a year or two that 5-6 year group is supposed to be flowing at Envoy, but yes, anything can happen.

    As you always say.

    I was pointing out that the OP is supposedly trying to address future new hires, with facts that dont actually translate to the new hire group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Again, any winning ticket I may have held wasn't a winning ticket until cashed. In fact, even with AA seniority, it wasn't cashed yet and in fact, others tried to nullify it prior to payoff. The present flow offers a fraction of the legal weight of Letter 3. Being ONLY contractual, it can much more easily be rendered "null, void and of no further force and effect". It's a promissory IOU. Nothing more, nothing less.
    Unfortunately you couldn't be more wrong. It is not some promissory deal as you are fond of saying. It is in fact....a contract. Which is a written agreement between two parties. If violated, there are repurcussions and they aren't pretty for either side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Unfortunately you couldn't be more wrong. It is not some promissory deal as you are fond of saying. It is in fact....a contract. Which is a written agreement between two parties. If violated, there are repurcussions and they aren't pretty for either side.
    You are correct, it is a contract. History proves that contracts aren’t set in stone. Letter 3 was violated repeatedly and required multiple arbitration’s along the way to resolve disagreements. Contracts can also be modified and even nullified by any number of methods. So, in a nutshell, anyone with plans to flow to AA only has a promise to flow at some point in the future with timing also variable. Besides, if anyone should know the porous aspect of a labor contract, it’s Envoy pilots whose contract has been long ago converted to Swiss cheese and has a long history of thousands upon thousands of grievances for violations.

    Wake up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirsnacksalot View Post
    5-7 years from what I’ve heard. Over time, things will equalize across all 3 WOs as far as time served. Not sure on the percentages though...
    Should have been a suit like the Pinnacle three subsidiaries and career expectations. The Envoy guys would likely have all gone first until it evened out.....
    __________________________________________________ __

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    Looks like desperation for street captains is intensifying. Offering “up to” $113K for captains now.........and misrepresenting per diem as pay to fluff up the sales pitch. Someone on APC says these captains are living in misery on reserve, which I don’t doubt. The good news is these captains at some point will be able to trade their situation and claw at least a little QWL back when they downgrade to F/O.

    Of course, it will involve a 50% pay cut in year 2 with no bonus money.

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    They can't voluntary downgrade except via offering to be displaced in lieu of junior guy. I dont think company will run a displacement bid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    They can't voluntary downgrade except via offering to be displaced in lieu of junior guy. I dont think company will run a displacement bid.
    So Junior captain in purgatory for years while most others leapfrog you ? After the first years teaser bonus vaporizes, year 2 must be when the real depression kicks-in. Instead of “taste’s great, less filling”, it’s “all the abuse, half the pay”. Sounds like a suckers bet.

    Yikes.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 11-25-2018 at 09:39 AM.

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    The staffing situation is becoming
    EXTREMELY SERIOUS at EHQ.
    The flow is becoming hard to sell, company is switching to cash option.
    Last edited by NoOtPilot; 11-25-2018 at 01:01 PM.

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