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Thread: This is how Bankruptcy begins...

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    Registered User NoOtPilot's Avatar
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    This is how Bankruptcy begins...


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    For those that didnít have the privilege to go thru this process...
    This is how it all begins...right before Christmas.

    American Airlines filed for bankruptcy protection to cut labor costs in the face of high fuel prices, capping a prolonged descent for what was once the largest U.S. carrier.

    American Airlines, also filed for bankruptcy and replaced its chief executive.
    The company, has been mired for years in fruitless union negotiations...

    November 29, 2011 / 7:54pm / 7 YEARS AGO
    ďI always tell the truth. Even when I lie.Ē

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    For those that didn’t have the privilege to go thru this process...
    This is how it all begins...right before Christmas.

    American Airlines filed for bankruptcy protection to cut labor costs in the face of high fuel prices, capping a prolonged descent for what was once the largest U.S. carrier.

    American Airlines, also filed for bankruptcy and replaced its chief executive.
    The company, has been mired for years in fruitless union negotiations...

    November 29, 2011 / 7:54pm / 7 YEARS AGO
    Considering both mechanics and pilots at AA have high expectations of industry leading contracts, I have difficulty conceiving AA spending huge sums of money for those. Next year alone as previously noted, they intend (hope) to build an additional 1 Billion in revenue largely through additional seating in already painfully cramped Group II aircraft and theoretically more profitable flying and save another 300 million mostly through the decapitation of employment of tens of thousands of workers in mid-level management positions.

    The contracts necessary to meet both those employee groups needs would negate much of that theoretical additional profit. Additionally, I believe next year roughly 700 million will be required for the pilots pension alone and servicing their debt will be about 1 Billion. More importantly, the question is when they could afford such contracts ? If not now, when ? IMO, they will be unwilling to rationalize such expenditures even in good years, let alone not so good years. At some point, the dented can no longer serves its purpose with further kicking and history is ripe to repeat itself. Considering AAG’s issues, C11 will be an attractive option in the future, no doubt.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 11-08-2018 at 09:52 PM.

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    It appears starting march 2019 there will be an overall 15-20% schedule reduction.
    1 step closer to that infamous b.k.

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    Where did you see that? Is it a reduction overall across mainline and regional, or within just the regional network, or mainline only? "Cool! Now we should be able to drop trips!"

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    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    Across aag schedule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    It appears starting march 2019 there will be an overall 15-20% schedule reduction.
    1 step closer to that infamous b.k.
    Word at AA is that a significant schedule reduction has already shown up for December. If a 15-20% reduction in flying is occurring, perhaps it's AAG's way of trying to boost reliability ? At Envoy, it means those hungry F/O's looking to keep pace with their peers at other regionals insofar as building their flight time and quals, that's not good. For that mysterious group of migrants that has supposedly set up light housekeeping on Regent Blvd. banging continuously on the front doors to get in, not so good either. For flows, that's not good as AA is likely to have fewer equipment bids. The good news is that soon Envoy is slated to get through the PP's and then its down to 15/month, but likely for only about 1 year, BUT that will take some pressure off Envoy for awhile as the flow-thru becomes the drip-thru.

    Have to give them credit for finding new ways to scrape the bottom of the barrel to keep their operations clawing along, but I think at some point the barrel wont have insufficient material to scrape anymore at least in the sake of Envoy. Then what ?

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    Registered User Dacuj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Word at AA is that a significant schedule reduction has already shown up for December. If a 15-20% reduction in flying is occurring, perhaps it's AAG's way of trying to boost reliability ? At Envoy, it means those hungry F/O's looking to keep pace with their peers at other regionals insofar as building their flight time and quals, that's not good. For that mysterious group of migrants that has supposedly set up light housekeeping on Regent Blvd. banging continuously on the front doors to get in, not so good either. For flows, that's not good as AA is likely to have fewer equipment bids. The good news is that soon Envoy is slated to get through the PP's and then its down to 15/month, but likely for only about 1 year, BUT that will take some pressure off Envoy for awhile as the flow-thru becomes the drip-thru.

    Have to give them credit for finding new ways to scrape the bottom of the barrel to keep their operations clawing along, but I think at some point the barrel wont have insufficient material to scrape anymore at least in the sake of Envoy. Then what ?
    Wrong again! How can we be scraping the bottom of the barrel if we have plenty of apps on file? Also, how come you have predicted doom for Envoy since at least 2015 and we have only gotten better. More airplanes, more flow, more apps on file than we you started your crusade against all things Envoy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Wrong again! How can we be scraping the bottom of the barrel if we have plenty of apps on file? Also, how come you have predicted doom for Envoy since at least 2015 and we have only gotten better. More airplanes, more flow, more apps on file than we you started your crusade against all things Envoy.

    How are you going to spin the reduction in AA flight schedule?......can't wait to hear how this benefits the pilots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Wrong again! How can we be scraping the bottom of the barrel if we have plenty of apps on file? Also, how come you have predicted doom for Envoy since at least 2015 and we have only gotten better. More airplanes, more flow, more apps on file than we you started your crusade against all things Envoy.
    The regionals are running out of pilots and Envoy is a regional. If Envoy IS NOT scraping the bottom of the barrel, why have they had to resort to all these schemes just to get the pilots they do have ? Fact is, if Envoy wasn’t scraping that barrel, NONE of the present schemes would be necessary and Envoy would be offering what they did in 2015.

    Envoy has gotten “better” ?

    Not according to the pilots I’ve talked to.

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    Iíll bite. In my opinion envoy is a lot better than it was in 2015. Is it as good as itís ever been? Nope! 2010-mid 11 was a great time to be at eagle. Pvd got approved, better contract in my opinion, more based hiring 3200 and growing. Eagle was a better company. But envoy now is better than envoy was years ago. The only, and I mean only thing better now with envoy compared to eagle is they are actually flowing guys. But as a company that weíre currently working for. Eagle was better filler.
    Last edited by Pinkvisual; 11-12-2018 at 06:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    It appears starting march 2019 there will be an overall 15-20% schedule reduction.
    1 step closer to that infamous b.k.
    I think you omitted a decimal point and/or have bad information. A 20% reduction equals 3000 furloughs.

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    Why, your short staffed from what I hear

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Why, your short staffed from what I hear
    A buddy of mine says he rarely sees premium trips. He also said, he hasn't heard of a 20% reduction. Misplaced decimal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meatloaf View Post
    A buddy of mine says he rarely sees premium trips. He also said, he hasn't heard of a 20% reduction. Misplaced decimal?
    This is correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkvisual View Post
    I’ll bite. In my opinion envoy is a lot better than it was in 2015. Is it as good as it’s ever been? Nope! 2010-mid 11 was a great time to be at eagle. Pvd got approved, better contract in my opinion, more based hiring 3200 and growing. Eagle was a better company. But envoy now is better than envoy was years ago. The only, and I mean only thing better now with envoy compared to eagle is they are actually flowing guys. But as a company that we’re currently working for. Eagle was better filler.
    Excellent analysis. It's great to hear that the line guys are settling in and realizing that the system is working like it's supposed to. And that AAG has followed through on their promises and kept them. They aren't like AMR. They have a history of doing what they say they are going to do. Bravo Pink. Your flow date up soon?

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    I think you missed my point. Eagle was a better airline than envoy.

    Envoy now is better than it was during the failed contract negotiations psa debacle of 14. That was such a horrible time.
    Last edited by Pinkvisual; 11-13-2018 at 09:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkvisual View Post
    I’ll bite. In my opinion envoy is a lot better than it was in 2015. Is it as good as it’s ever been? Nope! 2010-mid 11 was a great time to be at eagle. Pvd got approved, better contract in my opinion, more based hiring 3200 and growing. Eagle was a better company. But envoy now is better than envoy was years ago. The only, and I mean only thing better now with envoy compared to eagle is they are actually flowing guys. But as a company that we’re currently working for. Eagle was better filler.
    The majority of the Envoy pilots I’ve talked to have painted a different picture. But, as you state, it is just that person’s opinion and opinions vary. I’ve concluded what status you are in has a significant impact on your QWL and thus your attitude and generally, the more senior in status, the better. I’ve also concluded what your expectations are impacts your outlook. Junior pipeliners tend to be more upbeat, but of course why shouldn’t they be as they’ve gotten the red carpet treatment. Also, they have no comparison with other regionals to make to balance any optimism.

    But that being said, it’s clear Envoy like its predecessor Eagle exists with a specific management philosophy that has been VERY consistent and I’ve concluded little has changed. That same philosophy has now been adopted at the New AA as well, so you are flowing to a similar environment that is inferior to what AA pilots peers experience. I think many pilots have just gotten used to it and so it becomes the norm and once it’s the norm, it doesn’t seem as bad as it was in the past. Finally, we have to understand the effects of the flow. It’s an intoxicant. To truly compare Envoy with carriers such as Endeavor or Skywest, we need to disregard the flow. Once that is done and raw comparison is made, I think QWL, compensation and treatment are inferior at Envoy compared to their peers at those carriers. The first two are a byproduct (in part) of Envoy pilots (like AA pilots) still operating under a bankruptcy contract. The latter is systemic here and at AA. Neither are likely to change anytime soon and I assert as the supply of regional pilots dwindles, things are likely to get worse. If AA’s specifics tank, then much worse.

    The true litmus of evaluating Envoy from inside requires asking yourself one question and that is;

    Is this somewhere I would be happy to spend my career at if I had to ?

    If the answer is yes, congrats. Your needs are met. If not, then deciding it’s better then a specific point in the past doesn’t mean much. In your case, I congratulate you on being content as clearly you feel things have improved. But IMO, variations occur and unless Envoy is a company its employees and pilots would consider acceptable career material, nothing has truly changed. The majority vibe I get says most wouldn’t want to stay at a Envoy for their careers and in fact, many that I talk to indicate the thing they focus most on is a parole date to somewhere else.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 11-13-2018 at 10:03 AM.

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    Perspective is everything beagle. I used to be one of those guys that bitched non stop about how the company was treating us. I used to complain about the contract and psa, etc. yes I got senior captain status pretty quickly so life isnít that bad for me. It came down to one conclusion and mind set that changed my perspective. If I didnít like my job I could leave at any time. I chose to stay and ride out the ship show. I could continue bitching but ultimately it was my choice to stay here. And as such I chose to try to enjoy my job and try to make coming to work fun and enjoyable. I try to look at the glass half full now and it really makes coming to work much more enjoyable. Not as fun now as it was when we had lax and I drove to work. BUT that was a different time. Of course being close to flowing helps. Seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and realizing that my childhood dream is close to fruition helps. Is it all roses and rainbows here? Not at all but it could be worse. I could be an out of work cooperate pilot like I was in 07. Perspective is everything. Woo saaaahhhh!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkvisual View Post
    Perspective is everything beagle. I used to be one of those guys that bitched non stop about how the company was treating us. I used to complain about the contract and psa, etc. yes I got senior captain status pretty quickly so life isn’t that bad for me. It came down to one conclusion and mind set that changed my perspective. If I didn’t like my job I could leave at any time. I chose to stay and ride out the ship show. I could continue bitching but ultimately it was my choice to stay here. And as such I chose to try to enjoy my job and try to make coming to work fun and enjoyable. I try to look at the glass half full now and it really makes coming to work much more enjoyable. Not as fun now as it was when we had lax and I drove to work. BUT that was a different time. Of course being close to flowing helps. Seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and realizing that my childhood dream is close to fruition helps. Is it all roses and rainbows here? Not at all but it could be worse. I could be an out of work cooperate pilot like I was in 07. Perspective is everything. Woo saaaahhhh!
    Again good for you. Only you can decide what your needs are and how you see them. But again, I have to note your last paragraph. You talk about the “light at the end of the tunnel”. That phrase is used to describe oneself in an undesirable situation with release almost at hand. Again, would you feel the same way about your situation if that light suddenly went out ? After all, as you say you’re senior and things aren’t so bad. If it did and then you would choose to leave Envoy, it means Envoy isn’t a satisfying career in and of itself, but simply a conveyor belt out of a tunnel EVEN if senior.

    I think most of those who are staying there for life (or end of career, whichever occurs first) are doing so not because of Envoy’s quality as an employer, but because of financials or perceived job security as being out of work is almost never as good as being employed. You’ve found a way to rationalize your situation and thus how to look at Envoy and I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. Almost everyone does that to exist in any less then perfect situation, but again, I think you would see Envoy (and your career situation) completely differently if the flow suddenly wasn’t there.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 11-13-2018 at 10:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    It appears starting march 2019 there will be an overall 15-20% schedule reduction.
    1 step closer to that infamous b.k.
    I was just told this is the 76 reduction only. It is being drawn down over three years.

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