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Thread: Get used to contract violations...

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    Registered User NoOtPilot's Avatar
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    Get used to contract violations...


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    The arbitrator in the case recently sided with the pilots and ruled that the company had, in fact, violated the contract.

    ~Envoy MEC~
    November 7th, 2018

    More violations to come...
    Same Eagle, desperate times...
    Old playbook!

    They will tailor the flow at their convince...it’s been done before.

    The total time from it first being noted the company violates a contract to is finalized remedy, just to illustrate the potential lengthiness of the whole process could take approximately four years.

    Are you willing to add another 4 years to your flow?
    Last edited by NoOtPilot; 11-07-2018 at 07:47 PM.

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    The whole grievance process and how the company drags it out, and then ends up only paying pennies on the dollar(LTFO anyone?) For remedy makes me wonder why the union keeps carrying the companies water all the time.

    Band aid after band aid to bend over backwards to help the company time and time again while screwing over their pilot group.

    Another grievance ruling coming down in our favor is the PSI grievance. When is the company going to be held reliable for constantly violating our contract?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiz5422 View Post
    The whole grievance process and how the company drags it out, and then ends up only paying pennies on the dollar(LTFO anyone?) For remedy makes me wonder why the union keeps carrying the companies water all the time..........t?
    Because it beats getting targeted and fired for actually fighting hard.

    Fight, yes.... but only hard enough to keep ALPA from a group DFR, and not hard enough to create enemies in management....
    Last edited by Cujo665; 11-08-2018 at 08:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    Because it beats getting targeted and fired for actually fighting hard.

    Fight, yes.... but only hard enough to keep ALPA from a group DFR, and not hard enough to create enemies in management....
    New-hires don’t understand this. Virtually none do any pre-selection due diligence beyond embracing effortless optics like “flow to AA !”, posters of E-175’s and 787 cockpit panels and proclamations of “Crown Jewels !” that are nothing more then emotional eye-candy. They are successfully conditioned to look far down the road at mirages of hope to distract them from present realities of their decision until they are in good and deep when they then rationalize it’s too late to start over somewhere else. In the interim, many become frustrated, miserable and/or depressed once they do look around and grasp their present reality. In the psychology of labor/management relations, it’s refereed to as ‘managing expectations’.

    I shake my head at pictures of today’s new-hires all wearing the same shirts and ID lanyards (that even say “American Airlines” to boot). I think it’s a perfect example of mind control to get one into “group think” (and looking down the road) whose purpose is successful subservient control by others much like certain schools require all children to wear uniforms and dress alike. Individuals are harder to control, but groups much easier, especially when their expectations have been successfully managed. That’s why they seek to control Envoy’s pilot “Association” (it is NOT a true union). Control them and you control the pilot group.

    Anyway, I think you can’t really blame these poor pilots as for the most part, they are young and unsophisticated. Sadly, some pilots actually ally themselves with their abusers and become willing sycophants, lackey’s and lapdogs to varying degrees with varying motives, usually self-interest. Sometimes this is covert like the pilots who become Association reps and succumb to what you describe to protect their own path and for others it’s overt like our wonderful friends Dacuj and DolphinsFan among others. These are the worst batch as they actually take pleasure in selling the expectation and discount, deflect or ignore the present unpleasant realities viciously attacking anyone who dares to highlight a different view with bullying, intimidation and even threats. The end result is entirely predictable where the future looks exactly like the present and will never change as each successive generation of pilots unwittingly plays out the same Kabuki dance in perpetuity.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 11-08-2018 at 09:35 AM.

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    Hi BeagleBoy,
    You seem to have great insight. Unfortunately I belong to the same “new, young and unsophiscated” pilot group at Envoy. Out of curiosity, are you part of union leadership too? If you aren’t, you probably should. That way, all the valid points you post here, you can take it against company, and we “new, young and unsophisticated” pilots can learn from you and your leadership.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DumbWithNumbers View Post
    Hi BeagleBoy,
    You seem to have great insight. Unfortunately I belong to the same “new, young and unsophiscated” pilot group at Envoy. Out of curiosity, are you part of union leadership too? If you aren’t, you probably should. That way, all the valid points you post here, you can take it against company, and we “new, young and unsophisticated” pilots can learn from you and your leadership.
    I'm sorry you were offended as clearly you were.

    But of course, we both know the point of your response was not truly what you suggest (which would be something for the benefit of Envoy pilots as opposed to yourself (or those your represent), but instead an attempt to undermine me by hopefully rallying others around you and against me by slanting what I said as an insult to all Envoy pilots. We both know it was an attempt to validate YOU. I have no illusion you are not sophisticated my friend (despite your misspelling of the word) or "new and young" and know EXACTLY what you are seeking to accomplish, but in doing so, you IMO actually prove one of my points, that being Envoy pilots are subject to sophisticated manipulation in multiple forms. Some can see that, others not so much. MOST learn it over time, BUT that TAKES time, hence the "in too deep" situation many unfortunately find themselves is here. New-hires aren't bad people, but how can you learn without exposure ? You become a student of history and history here has been VERY, VERY consistent. It also takes some time.

    In fact, I too was "new, young and unsophisticated" as a new-hire which was the sub-segment of pilots I was referring to, but I have observed and learned. I'm not special, I just choose to have the courage to SEE instead of not and I call them as I see them. I also learn from history and apply that to what I see in the present and that is where I consider what happens in the future. Many more tenured Envoy pilots know full well what I'm talking about and aren't easily fooled anymore which alas, is what angers Dacuj and Flipper so much here and elsewhere. They are used to easier pickings. In fact, I assumed you were a new "ringer" called in by the coach the minute you showed up just a few short posts ago. Not a bad effort on your part, but I think you'd have been more effective being a bit more subtle and easing in from a different angle. Manipulation is a subtle and sophisticated game as we both know, but thanks for the demonstration as it did indeed have value.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 11-08-2018 at 11:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    New-hires don’t understand this. Virtually none do any pre-selection due diligence beyond embracing effortless optics like “flow to AA !”, posters of E-175’s and 787 cockpit panels and proclamations of “Crown Jewels !” that are nothing more then emotional eye-candy. They are successfully conditioned to look far down the road at mirages of hope to distract them from present realities of their decision until they are in good and deep when they then rationalize it’s too late to start over somewhere else. In the interim, many become frustrated, miserable and/or depressed once they do look around and grasp their present reality. In the psychology of labor/management relations, it’s refereed to as ‘managing expectations’.

    I shake my head at pictures of today’s new-hires all wearing the same shirts and ID lanyards (that even say “American Airlines” to boot). I think it’s a perfect example of mind control to get one into “group think” (and looking down the road) whose purpose is successful subservient control by others much like certain schools require all children to wear uniforms and dress alike. Individuals are harder to control, but groups much easier, especially when their expectations have been successfully managed. That’s why they seek to control Envoy’s pilot “Association” (it is NOT a true union). Control them and you control the pilot group.

    Anyway, I think you can’t really blame these poor pilots as for the most part, they are young and unsophisticated. Sadly, some pilots actually ally themselves with their abusers and become willing sycophants, lackey’s and lapdogs to varying degrees with varying motives, usually self-interest. Sometimes this is covert like the pilots who become Association reps and succumb to what you describe to protect their own path and for others it’s overt like our wonderful friends Dacuj and DolphinsFan among others. These are the worst batch as they actually take pleasure in selling the expectation and discount, deflect or ignore the present unpleasant realities viciously attacking anyone who dares to highlight a different view with bullying, intimidation and even threats. The end result is entirely predictable where the future looks exactly like the present and will never change as each successive generation of pilots unwittingly plays out the same Kabuki dance in perpetuity.
    You shake your head at new hires wearing AA shirts and lanyards because you weren't afforded the opportunity. You talk as if we can't get pilots at Envoy. Take a look at the recent class pics of these young extremely qualified aviators. Many from the pipeline program that will be supplying AA for years to come.

    More of the same blah blah blah, flow is failing, on the cusp of disaaster sky is falling posts from you.

    Epic fail.

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    It will take a lot more to offend me my friend, so no worries there. Perhaps the lack of better term on my part makes you think I was being sarcastic. But I was simply saying, your insight should be used, where it can materialize like through a better platform such as union where you can talk to company directly during negotiations. You lost me on the ringer part. But yes I’m friend with all the envoy pilots I’ve ran through, just like you have become my friend. Happy Landings. 😀

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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    You shake your head at new hires wearing AA shirts and lanyards because you weren't afforded the opportunity. You talk as if we can't get pilots at Envoy. Take a look at the recent class pics of these young extremely qualified aviators. Many from the pipeline program that will be supplying AA for years to come.
    I'm disillushioned because I didn't get to participate in what I consider the present Stepford Wives philosophy of robotic manipulation of the hearts and minds of Envoy new-hires ?

    Um, OK.......

    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    More of the same blah blah blah, flow is failing, on the cusp of disaaster sky is falling posts from you.

    Epic fail.
    ......and to the forum, I present this as exhibit #1 of my opinions in post #4. Exhibit #2 will probably be along shortly.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 11-08-2018 at 01:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DumbWithNumbers View Post
    It will take a lot more to offend me my friend, so no worries there. Perhaps the lack of better term on my part makes you think I was being sarcastic. But I was simply saying, your insight should be used, where it can materialize like through a better platform such as union where you can talk to company directly during negotiations. You lost me on the ringer part. But yes I’m friend with all the envoy pilots I’ve ran through, just like you have become my friend. Happy Landings. ��
    The Envoy ALPA "Association" is hardly a functional platform anymore. If it were, Envoy pilots wouldn't be in the situation they are now in and those who did what you suggest wouldn't have been railroaded off the property to send a message. As for "negotiations", if that too had any validity, at the very least Envoy management would honor that which they agree to. Over the last decade or so, how many violations and grievances have occurred ?

    It must be over 5,000 and it sounds worse now then ever. With the apparent present management philosophy towards pilots (which BTW is little different at AA...at least upper management), the situation is indeed hopeless. Happy Landings to you as well.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 11-08-2018 at 01:53 PM.

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    HOPE, my friend, is a big word. When people like you, with enough experience, just show the dark side of envoy, but don’t do anything, even when you have opportunity to do it through Union and possibly fixing union the way it should be, but rather complain about what the hard working volunteers at the union are NOT doing, just doesn’t sound right.
    Before you assume that I’m with union, just like you assumed I was someone else number 2, I’ll just make it easy on you, I’m too new to understand what goes on inside the airline industry union.
    Last edited by DumbWithNumbers; 11-08-2018 at 01:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DumbWithNumbers View Post
    HOPE, my friend, is a big word. When people like you, with enough experience, just show the dark side of envoy, but don’t do anything, even when you have opportunity to do it through Union and possibly fixing union the way it should be, but rather complain about what the hard working volunteers at the union are not doing, just doesn’t sound right.
    I understand it doesn't sound right to you, but that's because I'm in no position to do what you suggest as I'm not an Envoy pilot. I assumed Dacuj and/or Flipper had already clued you in by text or a paper airplane over the cubicle wall by now. I'm not saying certain individuals within the Envoy ALPA Association structure aren't hard working, I'm saying the dynamics are hopelessly poisoned and thus no longer effective. Personally, IMO I think the best thing the Association can do now is no longer find ways to assist management in digging themselves out of their self-made conundrums and you can be sure as time goes on, they'll do it again. Let's face it, if it weren't for the Association, Envoy management would be in a heap of trouble now. But, doing that takes determination, courage, fortitude, sacrifice and yes, the most dreaded component of all.........risk. In other words, become a real union instead of masquerading as one by proxy. Start putting pilots first, instead of being Santa Claus to management. Nothing illegal, of course, but be a UNION.

    So also IMO, my only ability is to simply call it as I see it here. Of course, it won't change anything, but at least another perspective is available and maybe, just maybe someone will learn something.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 11-08-2018 at 02:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    I'm disillushioned because I didn't get to participate in what I consider the present Stepford Wives philosophy of robotic manipulation of the hearts and minds of Envoy new-hires ?

    Um, OK.......


    ......and to the forum, I present this as exhibit #1 of my opinions in post #4. Exhibit #2 will probably be along shortly.
    He is right. You are on this forum all the time as well as others with multiple screen names constantly going after Envoy.

    These young guys are some of the best and the brightest out there and they are choosing Envoy for a reason. I know, I'm one of them as well coming from the pipeline program. There was never any choice for me but Envoy. Now I fly with a very few 'older' Eagle type FOs and many, many really young pipeline guys. I can tell you the older guys can't hold a candle to the young pipeliners. They far surpass them in their stick and rudder skills and absolutely blow them away with positive attitudes. They all say the same thing by the way. They chose Envoy for the flow to American and all are very happy here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    He is right. You are on this forum all the time as well as others with multiple screen names constantly going after Envoy.

    These young guys are some of the best and the brightest out there and they are choosing Envoy for a reason. I know, I'm one of them as well coming from the pipeline program. There was never any choice for me but Envoy. Now I fly with a very few 'older' Eagle type FOs and many, many really young pipeline guys. I can tell you the older guys can't hold a candle to the young pipeliners. They far surpass them in their stick and rudder skills and absolutely blow them away with positive attitudes. They all say the same thing by the way. They chose Envoy for the flow to American and all are very happy here.
    I did IOE for years. I never saw 1 new hire (or any pilot with under 200 hours at Envoy) that could compare to anybody at Envoy who had 5+ years of stick and rudder time. To think a 21 year old can out fly a 30+ year old with 6 plus years seniority at Envoy is asinine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    He is right. You are on this forum all the time as well as others with multiple screen names constantly going after Envoy.

    These young guys are some of the best and the brightest out there and they are choosing Envoy for a reason. I know, I'm one of them as well coming from the pipeline program. There was never any choice for me but Envoy. Now I fly with a very few 'older' Eagle type FOs and many, many really young pipeline guys. I can tell you the older guys can't hold a candle to the young pipeliners. They far surpass them in their stick and rudder skills and absolutely blow them away with positive attitudes. They all say the same thing by the way. They chose Envoy for the flow to American and all are very happy here.
    Well, looked what the cat dragged in. It's been awhile smokey............how 'ya been ?

    I see nothing has changed and why should it ? The Kool-Aid is as refreshing as ever, yes ?

    This discussion has nothing to do with airmanship, but muddying up the water (or sky) is your specialty, so no surprise there. Look, I'm sure many of the pipeline pilots are fine people and good pilots, but.........they really have little clue about history and I have no doubt have "positive attitudes" considering the sweet nectar being poured down their throats. I'm sorry, but you must hear from different Envoy pilots then I do about life there now, but no matter.

    Again, for the record, I post on no other airline forums except this one anymore and only have one screen name here. Believe me, don't believe me, I don't care. Hope all is well as after all, looking at the future through your lenses and as a result of your chosen psychological beverage, the future is so bright, ya' gotta wear shades ! What could go wrong ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglepilot View Post
    I did IOE for years. I never saw 1 new hire (or any pilot with under 200 hours at Envoy) that could compare to anybody at Envoy who had 5+ years of stick and rudder time. To think a 21 year old can out fly a 30+ year old with 6 plus years seniority at Envoy is asinine.
    What's asinine is perspectives like this. Sounds like you are biased because you maybe got hired at the wrong time. I fly with MANY pipeline guys that have less than 500 hours at Envoy and to a T, they are all excellent sticks and have outstanding SA. The older guys, not so much.

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    Oh ok, if you say so flameinsky.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    What's asinine is perspectives like this. Sounds like you are biased because you maybe got hired at the wrong time. I fly with MANY pipeline guys that have less than 500 hours at Envoy and to a T, they are all excellent sticks and have outstanding SA. The older guys, not so much.
    Ahh....the old "jealousy" argument. Always an emotionally reliable card to play, no ? I always enjoy this one personally. :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    He is right. You are on this forum all the time as well as others with multiple screen names constantly going after Envoy.

    These young guys are some of the best and the brightest out there and they are choosing Envoy for a reason. I know, I'm one of them as well coming from the pipeline program. There was never any choice for me but Envoy. Now I fly with a very few 'older' Eagle type FOs and many, many really young pipeline guys. I can tell you the older guys can't hold a candle to the young pipeliners. They far surpass them in their stick and rudder skills and absolutely blow them away with positive attitudes. They all say the same thing by the way. They chose Envoy for the flow to American and all are very happy here.
    And new guys have positive attitudes cause they haven't experienced ANYTHING like the senior guys have. Multiple bankruptcies, concessions multiple times so new guys can get bonuses, 8+ year upgrades, base closures, etc. New guys just have no idea how lucky they have it. I remember flying with one guy who was bitching that the upgrade time was 18 months. I laughed at him. By the way, he could not recitw the V1 cut profile or what was needed to descend below MDA on approach. But my God he'll be a CA soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Ahh....the old "jealousy" argument. Always an emotionally reliable card to play, no ? I always enjoy this one personally. :-)
    Jealousy seems to be your strong suit pops. You can read it all through your rants. It's obvious you wished you would have been hired at Envoy at the beginning of the wave in 2015 instead of back in the 80s.

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