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Thread: The Flow

  1. #21
    Registered User NoOtPilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiz5422 View Post
    please tell me why our union negotiated this 29 crap, instead of holding the company to their 50%?

    oh.....maybe because we are to busy giving them band-aids to help fix their incompetent manager decisions.
    Thatís how the PP Group secured their way out of here. They are not going to get stuck here, you will see. Learn how is done. It will be useful someday when the company begins to play musical chairs with the flow, like they have done in the past. Get involved, and buy your way out of here, unfortunately screwing a fellow pilot...seems to be an investment. Look where formers ALPA leaders are.
    ďIt works.Ē
    Last edited by NoOtPilot; 10-10-2018 at 09:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglepilot View Post
    FWIW, AA Training center says 50 pilots a CLASS with 2 to 3 classes a month......and Envoy will flow 29.
    Thatís 100-150 pilots/month with Envoy flowing the minimum 29. A lot of lost relative seniority and if things go South, anyone who makes it to AA property will want every seniority number they can get.

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    Dacuj, whatís the envoy seniority list look like numbers wise January 1 this year versus now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koojo View Post
    Total BS from a known forum idiot.
    So the 4 people I've personally talked to in recruitment and the 3 in managers/check Airman who teach/visit new hires during Orientation/Training are wrong?

  5. #25
    Registered User Dacuj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirsnacksalot View Post
    Dacuj, whatís the envoy seniority list look like numbers wise January 1 this year versus now?
    Very, very good. Growing in fact. Some more facts for you:

    https://youtu.be/463jmaVssxU

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    Rather than respond with a vague answer that includes a link to a feel good propaganda circle jerk video, why wonít you answer my simple question with the NUMBERS that I asked for?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirsnacksalot View Post
    Rather than respond with a vague answer that includes a link to a feel good propaganda circle jerk video, why won’t you answer my simple question with the NUMBERS that I asked for?
    The cagey and evasive salesman rarely if ever answers direct questions with facts, but it's an interesting video.

    Isom does state some facts IMO, but carefully avoids the known negatives, among them being QWL and respect for the pilots contract or lack thereof. Yes, training is as good as anyones and better then many and good travel options are available. However, "competitive" pay ? That is a subjective statement which has valid disagreement. Growing fleet ? Ummm.........maybe a little........maybe. But, even though Isom stated "half of all flowthru's come from the THREE wholly-owned's", Someone included a statement across the bottom of the screen that it is Envoy pilots that make up 50% of AA new-hire classes. Is that true ?

    If not, is there some loose and fast salesmanship occurring ? IF loose and fast salesmanship is occurring like selective statements, strategic omissions and conflicting representations, can this source be trusted as a honest information source or a source with a goal and an agenda to reach that goal ? Each pilot needs to evaluate and decide that for themselves. Again, my only suggestion is..........

    CAVEAT EMPTOR.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 10-11-2018 at 09:19 AM.

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    Dacuj I don't think anyone is saying the flow is a bad thing in concept. It has and will allow guy/girls that might never have made it to mainline to make it to AA.
    The issue you seem to be missing is the flow is worth zero till a pilot flows, and the WO pilots shouldn't have to pay for a flow now that they might never get.

  9. #29
    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    He does not understand, has not so far.
    He will say the flow will pay off. Yes it will if you are able survive poor qol, poor schedules, atrocious pay behind all else except the w/o's and mesa.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
    Dacuj I don't think anyone is saying the flow is a bad thing in concept. It has and will allow guy/girls that might never have made it to mainline to make it to AA.
    The issue you seem to be missing is the flow is worth zero till a pilot flows, and the WO pilots shouldn't have to pay for a flow now that they might never get.
    This is not entirely accurate. The flow definitely carries value for current Envoy pilots from a seniority perspective. What other airline (other than an AA WO) guarantees a similar percentage of movement almost every month of the year from the top of the seniority list?

    Granted, AA not hiring in the future would change the situation dramatically. However, without the flow there is no guarantee that those pilots would get or want jobs elsewhere. Many would be riding the top of the Envoy list preventing upgrades, base transfers, schedule improvement, etc for the junior folks.

    The flow is a big benefit for those who use it to get to AA, but it also has very tangible seniority benefits for those still at Envoy.

  11. #31
    Registered User DolphinsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    This is not entirely accurate. The flow definitely carries value for current Envoy pilots from a seniority perspective. What other airline (other than an AA WO) guarantees a similar percentage of movement almost every month of the year from the top of the seniority list?

    Granted, AA not hiring in the future would change the situation dramatically. However, without the flow there is no guarantee that those pilots would get or want jobs elsewhere. Many would be riding the top of the Envoy list preventing upgrades, base transfers, schedule improvement, etc for the junior folks.

    The flow is a big benefit for those who use it to get to AA, but it also has very tangible seniority benefits for those still at Envoy.
    100%. Exactly.

    P***ing into the wind here brother. These dumb a**es here on this forum can barely figure out what 2 + 2 is let alone understanding the concept above.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    This is not entirely accurate. The flow definitely carries value for current Envoy pilots from a seniority perspective. What other airline (other than an AA WO) guarantees a similar percentage of movement almost every month of the year from the top of the seniority list?

    Granted, AA not hiring in the future would change the situation dramatically. However, without the flow there is no guarantee that those pilots would get or want jobs elsewhere. Many would be riding the top of the Envoy list preventing upgrades, base transfers, schedule improvement, etc for the junior folks.

    The flow is a big benefit for those who use it to get to AA, but it also has very tangible seniority benefits for those still at Envoy.
    Agreed.

    But, I think the flow has even more value for Envoy pilots then you describe for without it, Envoy would likely be on life support and a fraction of its current size. Let’s face it......without the flow, what real reason would there for any pilot to come to Envoy ? I think unless a pilot is super senior and/or in their very late 50’s or older and simply “riding it out” until retirement, Envoy offers little incentive to tolerate such an existence even to fly a “crown jewel”. Without the flow, Envoy would be a shrinking carrier offering little in the way of upgrades and advancement to match the poor QWL stated by many Envoy pilots. The problem as you mention, is the flow is at risk of stopping due to situations beyond AAG’s control or at least as a result of things they could have controlled, but chose not to.

    Looking at the cyclical nature of this industry which is historically very reliable in occurance, but variable in timing, we are now overdue in timing. The risk is there and it IS real despite what some want to sell. When (not if) that occurs, Envoy will be in a new situation entirely and yes, it would likely be “dramatic”.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 10-12-2018 at 08:26 AM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    100%. Exactly.

    P***ing into the wind here brother. These dumb a**es here on this forum can barely figure out what 2 + 2 is let alone understanding the concept above.
    Speaking of selling......

    We can figure out 2 + 2....it equals 4. That’s in the REAL world. What many don’t want to understand is that blindly assuming the flow will pay off at any given date in the future is NOT living in the real world, but in a world of delusion. That delusion is fueled by those who come here (and elsewhere) representing 2 + 2 = 6.54817 and then demanding others believe it because they say so and yet still others who question it keep their mouths shut or worse yet should be silenced and banned.

    IMO, anyone who believes that tack is the “dumb a**”........and anyone who promotes it ?

    Well, my description then goes downhill from there.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 10-12-2018 at 08:23 AM.

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