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  1. #21
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    we all sit here and tote that AAG won't move in that direction until they see new hire numbers drop, but we (The pilots already on property) do nothing about it but b!tch and moan on these forums.

    How many of us are emailing our union reps demanding that they push for these improvements? how many of us are emailing management demanding these improvements?

    How many of us our bending over backwards to make sure the operation runs on time and smoothly? How many of us our up dating our apps monthly and actively working on getting hired outside the flow?

    We have more leverage then most think we do, but we do nothing about it. Think about that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Thatís what Kookoo said. Envoy pilots have a flow-thru so no need for pay, QWL and bennies. Thatís what pilots come to Envoy for........the hope of a payoff next Tuesday.
    From managementís perspective... yeah, exactly. Why the eff would they increase their labor costs if thereís no problem retaining or attracting pilots all while enjoying excellent performance? Where is the need? They arenít going to make any improvements because Ďitís the right thing to do.í Significant improvements to QOL and pay arenít coming until management is forced to make changes.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglepilot View Post
    My class at AA has 47 pilots. 30 are flows. 9 military. So the answer is 8 out of 47 are other airlines.
    YOU just made MY point. With only 8 out of 47, OTS has almost zero chance of coming from a regional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koojo View Post
    YOU just made MY point. With only 8 out of 47, OTS has almost zero chance of coming from a regional.
    But pilots at other regionals will likely get their fair share of new-hire slots at the two premier legacy carriers and at least 3 other carriers all with better compensation and QWL then AA. In fact, likely more by being more aggressive about getting there due to not lazily assuming they are certain to flow to Utopia. RIGHT NOW Envoy pilots are getting their 25 monthly slots at the largest LCC in the world who trails a majority of their competitors pilots in most contractual metrics and most importantly will likely remain that way (or worse) for the foreseeable future.

    I argue these “other” regional pilots will make more over their careers, have better lifestyles and most importantly better job security as their destinations aren’t mired in monsterous debt, nor have competitively boxed themselves in to a corner due to staffing, liquidity and marketing options.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    But pilots at other regionals will likely get their fair share of new-hire slots at the two premier legacy carriers and at least 3 other carriers all with better compensation and QWL then AA. In fact, likely more by being more aggressive about getting there due to not lazily assuming they are certain to flow to Utopia.RIGHT NOW Envoy pilots are getting their 25 monthly slots at the largest LCC in the world who trails a majority of their competitors pilots in most contractual metrics and most importantly will likely remain that way (or worse) for the foreseeable future.

    I argue these “other” regional pilots will make more over their careers, have better lifestyles and most importantly better job security as their destinations aren’t mired in monsterous debt, nor have competitively boxed themselves in to a corner due to staffing, liquidity and marketing options.
    WHAT 3 other carriers? Last I counted, you had AA, DL and UA as the legacies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koojo View Post
    WHAT 3 other carriers? Last I counted, you had AA, DL and UA as the legacies.
    Read again.

    TWO premier legacies (there are only two). AA USED to be a “premier” legacy, but is now a LCC in product and most importantly for pilots compensation and QWL. AA pilots used to be players, but no more. The other three carriers that have better contracts (compensation and QWL) are Southwest, FedEx and UPS. Spirits new contract has rates still short of AA’s (but not by much), but better LTD and scheduling. Jet Blue has better Group I rates then AA and pilots can actually make more depending on how they schedule themselves. QWL is better from those at JB I’ve talked to. From my interactions, I’ve concluded ALL have better environments and treatment by their upper management. Oh, and BTW, if you’re going to argue about FedEx and UPS flying back-side-of-the-clock, forget it. A significant percentage of AA’s recent ramping up of pilot productivity are red-eye’s and all-nighters, both Airbus and 737. Want to fly a widebody at AA ? You’ll spend a lot of days hanging upside down in your closet.

    Again, MOST important is that AA pilots have virtually NO chance of being elevated back to a premier legacy existence because just like Envoy management, there is no incentive there to waste money on something not necessary, because after all, it’s the exact same management philosophy toward pilots. Unlike Envoy, in the future AA will have no shortage of pilots, but WILL be unable to train them fast enough in the future making life even more frazzled for hapless AA pilots (especially those junior like flows). Also JUST as important as pay, scheduling, disability and all the other metrics of evaluating value in pilot employment, EVERY one of these other carriers arguably has better job security as they aren’t mired in massive debt (17 Billion ?) like AA who will be on their knees when the next industry downturn hits.

    I know you and your homies will refuse to accept this view as it doesn’t fit your agenda or narrative, but AA pilots without question fall WELL back in the financial and lifestyle pack among their industry peers with little hope of change. The good news is flows should be OK with this as, well...............it’s just like Envoy, but on steroids and aside from a few here today, I see little effort at pursuing true change at Envoy. Clearly ALPA doesn’t see it as a top priority.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 09-29-2018 at 12:30 PM.

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    Back to arguing about flow and what could happen in 6-10 years for progression. Letís look at now and our current employer. Itís time we start looking at better qol and pay. We are worth more!

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    Letís get real here. A lot of people took the hit and got paid very little to build time to be able to get hired at a regional like eaglevoy. You had to pass countless checkrides and minimum requirements. Your required to get a first class medical. You are an airline pilot being paid to move people safely from a-b. It is a good state of mind to look at the overal goal of reaching a major but in the meantime your an airline pilot.

    Even taking dacuj dolphin and kooj for the arguement they make. You are an aa pilot. (I donít agree with this and am just using it as an example) itís time we start thinking short term and start demanding pay equal to our peers. If you were to take away the bonus for new hires we are no where near the top for compensation or qol. Literally all we have is flow. I get it. Itís a good thing. But you are taking pay cuts for that flow day dream.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkvisual View Post
    Back to arguing about flow and what could happen in 6-10 years for progression. Let’s look at now and our current employer. It’s time we start looking at better qol and pay. We are worth more!
    Remember AAG is a follower (just like AMR was), so who knows perhaps when they decide their regional situation becomes bad enough they’ll throw out a bone or two like they did to AA pilots ? Even with those little bones though, AA pilots are still running at the back of the pack. But, yes you are correct. These moves by Envoy’s competition do highlight the fact Envoy pilots have been and continue to be sleepwalking through their Envoy employment ostensibly wandering around in technicolor dreams of flow to paradise (which is also itself if not a dream, at least loaded with much fantasy as I’ve asserted in this thread).

    Godspeed, but you’ll first need reps with a backbone instead of low profilers and middle of the herders and an Assiciation willing to ante up and speaking of the latter, first it is imperative to understand that at present, this pilot group’s reality is essentially that of a non-union carrier. Paying dues and wearing a pin isn’t being in a union. Unionism is behavior-oriented. Perhaps Envoy ALPA could say......schedule a meeting with some school teachers to get some tips about effective unionism ? I’d suggest meeting up with more blue-collar, gruff male-oriented unionists, like steel-workers, but they’d laugh too much to be of assistance.

    Again, good luck as you bring up the right tack, but this groups level and length of dysfunctionality make it an uphill run.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 09-29-2018 at 12:22 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkvisual View Post
    Let’s get real here. A lot of people took the hit and got paid very little to build time to be able to get hired at a regional like eaglevoy. You had to pass countless checkrides and minimum requirements. Your required to get a first class medical. You are an airline pilot being paid to move people safely from a-b. It is a good state of mind to look at the overal goal of reaching a major but in the meantime your an airline pilot.

    Even taking dacuj dolphin and kooj for the arguement they make. You are an aa pilot. (I don’t agree with this and am just using it as an example) it’s time we start thinking short term and start demanding pay equal to our peers. If you were to take away the bonus for new hires we are no where near the top for compensation or qol. Literally all we have is flow. I get it. It’s a good thing. But you are taking pay cuts for that flow day dream.
    Excellent.

    But this should be coming from your Association leaders for it to start to have a foundation. This latest gain among your peers isn’t the first and where have they been ? I haven’t read any industry or forum news from Envoy ALPA leadership about the plight of inferior existence among Envoy pilots, only observing a quiet wind of cautious nervousness by those hoping they get pulled aboard the good ship AA before it sails away in the next downturn leaving those behind to worry about and fend for themselves.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 09-29-2018 at 12:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koojo View Post
    YOU just made MY point. With only 8 out of 47, OTS has almost zero chance of coming from a regional.
    8 off the street is 3x more than envoy off the street (non flows)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koojo View Post
    YOU just made MY point. With only 8 out of 47, OTS has almost zero chance of coming from a regional.
    They like Expressjet& Skywest guys. I see them the most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Layman View Post
    They like Expressjet& Skywest guys. I see them the most.
    If you hire Envoy pilots then, they wonít be able to do what recently Isom said they are going to do...

    ďUtilize wholly owned pilot capacity to insource flying from affiliate partners.Ē
    ~Isom~

    https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com...3-3c521006f5c9

    You have more chances of been JM by a Unicorn, than get hire off the street from Envoy, now more than ever, they need you here!
    Last edited by NoOtPilot; 09-29-2018 at 06:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Layman View Post
    They like Expressjet& Skywest guys. I see them the most.
    Recruitment said they're taking more Envoy pilots via the street cause they need the pilots but envoy won't send more via flow. They want check Airman and 1000pic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglepilot View Post
    Recruitment said they're taking more Envoy pilots via the street cause they need the pilots but envoy won't send more via flow. They want check Airman and 1000pic.
    They are taking ďtheir buddiesĒ, just to make it look, like that are hiring from Envoy off the street. Look where they came from if you have access to it, and you will see. Donít let this move fool you.
    Last edited by NoOtPilot; 09-30-2018 at 08:46 AM.

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    They're taking Check Airman. Not sure what you mean by "their buddies."

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    If you hire Envoy pilots then, they wonít be able to do what recently Isom said they are going to do...

    ďUtilize wholly owned pilot capacity to insource flying from affiliate partners.Ē
    ~Isom~

    https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com...3-3c521006f5c9

    You have more chances of been JM by a Unicorn, than get hire off the street from Envoy, now more than ever, they need you here!
    Only helps the flow you idiot. We are growing and the more headcount we have just cushions the flow and also provides the possibility of it increasing more in the future. Before you start your negative diatribe, it has already increased once. Recently. By 48 per year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Only helps the flow you idiot. We are growing and the more headcount we have just cushions the flow and also provides the possibility of it increasing more in the future. Before you start your negative diatribe, it has already increased once. Recently. By 48 per year.
    Last I heard AA intended to accept no more than 25/month from Envoy. How about some specific facts for a change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Last I heard AA intended to accept no more than 25/month from Envoy. How about some specific facts for a change.
    Well you heard wrong. New agreement is 29 per month. Get your facts straight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Well you heard wrong. New agreement is 29 per month. Get your facts straight.
    If only 60 new hires per month. If they take 59, you don't get 29 flows.

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