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Thread: Is not a rumor....

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    Registered User NoOtPilot's Avatar
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    Is not a rumor....


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    Don’t get excited, is not even a rumor...just a simple question.

    In the event that Envoy pilots get staple at the bottom of AA seniority list, with a 5 years fence.
    What do they mean by a 5 years fence?
    And what a fence like this would do to the flow?
    I always tell the truth. Even when I lie.

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    Registered User Dacuj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    Don’t get excited, is not even a rumor...just a simple question.

    In the event that Envoy pilots get staple at the bottom of AA seniority list, with a 5 years fence.
    What do they mean by a 5 years fence?
    And what a fence like this would do to the flow?
    One list baby!

    Oh, we already have one list brah. The FLOW you DA clickbaiter.

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    Registered User Pancakes's Avatar
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    Flow does not equal list. No AA sen. num. until on property at AA. Everyone hired at AA before you flow is above you in seniority. Time at Envoy counts for nothing.

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    Registered User NoOtPilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    One list baby!

    Oh, we already have one list brah. The FLOW you DA clickbaiter.
    AWESOME 😎 👏🏼🎉🎊

    Now, could you answer the question?

    What do they mean by a 5 years fence?
    And what a fence like this would do to the flow?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    AWESOME  

    Now, could you answer the question?

    What do they mean by a 5 years fence?
    And what a fence like this would do to the flow?
    The one guy I heard talking about this fantasy said you'd be stuck on Envoy pay (and I assume Envoy equipment) for 5 years but you'd still be on the AA list and accruing seniority.

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    Registered User Dacuj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    AWESOME  

    Now, could you answer the question?

    What do they mean by a 5 years fence?
    And what a fence like this would do to the flow?
    No, why don't YOU answer the question clickbait. You are always on here talking about "better get you a desk job before 2021, trust me, the sky is falling." Seems to me you are the one who is extremely short on brainpower. You can't answer the question because there IS no ANSWER.

    The flow isn't going anywhere. It is our one list. Think about it, you ARE an AA pilot the day you show up for Envoy indoc. You are guaranteed to flow and it's contractual to boot. Why don't you open some conspiracy bar and take half the forum with you. You guys all deserve each other.

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    Not only APA would have to agree, but so would AA pilots. Parker would have to show up to the Fort looking like Santa Claus with a sack stuffed with goodies.

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    Registered User Dacuj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Not only APA would have to agree, but so would AA pilots. Parker would have to show up to the Fort looking like Santa Claus with a sack stuffed with goodies.
    News flash Einstein. Parker doesn't have to do squat. Its already happened. Its called F-L-O-W. But your not bright enough to figure that one out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    News flash Einstein. Parker doesn't have to do squat. Its already happened. Its called F-L-O-W. But your not bright enough to figure that one out.
    Imbecile. No APA/AA pilot agreement, no AA seniority. No AA seniority, no staple. Just the same old slow flow cracker........and speaking of being dim, it’s “you’re”, not “your”.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 09-24-2018 at 04:50 PM.

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    Registered User NoOtPilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloosky View Post
    The one guy I heard talking about this fantasy said you'd be stuck on Envoy pay (and I assume Envoy equipment) for 5 years but you'd still be on the AA list and accruing seniority.
    Thanks for your answer. Looks that this will add another 5 years at Envoy, before you are able to flow. Ouch!

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    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    Actually if envoy had a union, would be group 1 pay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Actually if envoy had a union, would be group 1 pay.
    We'd actually probably be at group 4 + 20%

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    Don’t get excited, is not even a rumor...just a simple question.

    In the event that Envoy pilots get staple at the bottom of AA seniority list, with a 5 years fence.
    What do they mean by a 5 years fence?
    And what a fence like this would do to the flow?
    I don't think that question has an answer unless the vehicle that produces such a result is fleshed out.

    The only way I could see this happening is AAG announcing and pursuing a merger/acquisition of one or all the WO's into AA. Insofar as pilots are concerned, the methodology of the corporate consolidation aspect isn't the driver, but the different labor contracts of the involved parties (pilots, F/A's, mechanics, etc.), each having different issues. Just for simplicity and arguments sake, if it were just Envoy and AA, the NMB would become involved in the seniority aspect as it would be just like any other SLI with in this case, a host of issues, UNLESS as part of the process (in the case of Envoy), its pilot labor representative Association (ALPA) agreed in advance as part of a proposed consolidation to a "staple" and any type of "fence". The staple part is relatively simple, but the specifics of any fence not so much. I would assume protections and contingencies wanted by both sides would make the fence portion quite complicated (even the staple issue to some degree could become somewhat complicated). We should remember though that AAG (and formerly AMR) has wanted and apparently still wants no part of such a consolidation as they claim it would increase costs across the board making their regional operations uncompetitive head-to-head with stand alone regionals. Once mainline unions get control of regional flying, the costs for each labor group will inevitably go up and thus it could be aptly argued the theoretical savings of having a more attractive pilot situation for staffing RJ's in the future would be overshadowed by substantially increased costs by doing that. I suppose it would be dependent on just how desperate things become in finding future pilots to consider this scenario. Eventually, it is very likely to get truly desperate, but this ending up the safe haven AAG flees to is hard to say.

    I'm skeptical of any such development (M/A of any or all WO's into AA) due to costs outweighing value of just resolving a future regional pilot issue. Now again, there's nothing to stop Parker from pursuing essentially a new type of Letter 3 situation which awards AA seniority pre-arrival on AA payroll either via some form of metric a pilot reaches like the old Letter 3 "CJ Captain" achievement or a snapshot of "stapling" the entire Envoy list (which then brings the fence condition into the equation), but again that would require cooperation and agreement from both APA and a thumbs up from the AA pilot group. Considering the word at AA now is essentially increasing scheduling chaos with staffing, reassignments and reserve pummeling along with overall contractual deficiency and disregard (something Envoy pilots no doubt understand) and generally from a competitive standpoint with Delta having been spit in the face for years now, I have a difficult time seeing the AA pilot group concerning themselves with AAG's regional pilot conundrum and bailing them out for little gained or even arguably for free like Envoy ALPA unless Parker and Isom do a 180 degree about face on their relationship with the AA pilot group and that includes both contractual provisions and treatment (AKA honoring the contract they agree to). Not impossible, but VERY difficult to conceive right now.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 09-25-2018 at 05:09 PM.

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    Super Moderator Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    AWESOME  

    Now, could you answer the question?

    What do they mean by a 5 years fence?
    And what a fence like this would do to the flow?
    We actually had meetings with the APA BOD and Scope Committee back in 2013 and had worked out a means to an eventual single list that began with fences and carveouts. The APA presented it to Parker and the Six Pack back then and were given several reasons why it wouldn't work. EGL ALPA and APA quietly worked to resolve those issues, and eventually APA presented another list merger to Parker and the Six Pack. This back and forth quietly went on for several months until the bosses finally agreed we had resolved it to their satisfaction except for three things.... The Mechanics, The Flight Attendants & the Ground Staff. They'd all need to be merged also to make it one company and realize the savings from a slimmer streamlined single management. They said get those groups to do what you've done and they'd seriously consider it. At that point we ran out of time to continue working on it as the SLI negotiations began.

    The boss is open to the idea of cost savings through consolidation, but it has to be done with all work groups, not just the pilots. They also weren't at the point of wanting to invest their own time, energy and resources to making it happen.

    Personally, I'd file a single carrier petition. ALPA will never do or support it because all three regionals will elect APA. However, the arguments for single carrier have never been stronger. If you look at the criteria they go by when deciding if it's single carrier, it's obvious that all 4 AAG companies are a single carrier under the terms outlined. Single ownership, single reservations systems, shared computer systems, identical company rules & regulations, virtually identical uniforms and identification, shared training facilities, and even travel benefits. Oh, and if your'e fired from one, you are non-hirable at any of the other three... its a single HR system. Finally, you have company people on here advertising that if you're hired at Envoy, you ARE an AA pilot since you never go through any formal hiring process. Sounds like single carrier to me.
    Last edited by Cujo665; 09-28-2018 at 09:17 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    We actually had meetings with the APA BOD and Scope Committee back in 2013 and had worked out a means to an eventual single list that began with fences and carveouts. The APA presented it to Parker and the Six Pack back then and were given several reasons why it wouldn't work. EGL ALPA and APA quietly worked to resolve those issues, and eventually APA presented another list merger to Parker and the Six Pack. This back and forth quietly went on for several months until the bosses finally agreed we had resolved it to their satisfaction except for three things.... The Mechanics, The Flight Attendants & the Ground Staff. They'd all need to be merged also to make it one company and realize the savings from a slimmer streamlined single management. They said get those groups to do what you've done and they'd seriously consider it. At that point we ran out of time to continue working on it as the SLI negotiations began.

    The boss is open to the idea of cost savings through consolidation, but it has to be done with all work groups, not just the pilots. They also weren't at the point of wanting to invest their own time, energy and resources to making it happen.

    Personally, I'd file a single carrier petition. ALPA will never do or support it because all three regionals will elect APA. However, the arguments for single carrier have never been stronger. If you look at the criteria they go by when deciding if it's single carrier, it's obvious that all 4 AAG companies are a single carrier under the terms outlined. Single ownership, single reservations systems, shared computer systems, identical company rules & regulations, virtually identical uniforms and identification, shared training facilities, and even travel benefits. Oh, and if your'e fired from one, you are non-hirable at any of the other three... its a single HR system. Finally, you have company people on here advertising that if you're hired at Envoy, you ARE an AA pilot since you never go through any formal hiring process. Sounds like single carrier to me.
    Good info and I don’t doubt any of this at all. But, that being said, 2013 and 2018 have major differences, not the least of which is the toxic labor relations at AA among all three mentioned front-line labor groups with Parker’s management. In 2013, there was optimism among legacy AA labor Parker’s promise of positive change in culture at AA would happen. The US Airways pilots in particular laughed. Turns out, most agree they were right, positive culture change never showed up and in fact, the vibe I hear is it’s now worse in most ways.

    I’d argue none of the aforementioned groups get much out of agreeing to inherit regional employees into their seniority lists even at the bottom in a hypothetical staple, even for pilots (and F/A’s) if it means some theoretical additional job security flying RJ’s to FAR limits for crap pay and even worse treatment. I see little likelihood of interest by AA labor in such a scheme as long as all three groups have competitively inferior contracts and almost as poor treatment, so just to set the stage for this requires a major across-the-board investment in mainline labor both economically and interpersonally. Difficult to envision.

    As for a SCF, in the case of Envoy pilots, as you state ALPA would likely not assist due to it resulting in loss of revenue and lets face it, ALPA is a business interested in robust profits and minimum costs to support their bloated executive compensation structure. Additionally, you’d have to get the other organized labor groups at Envoy on-board with ALPA. That in turn would mean it would have to be a grass roots effort spearheaded by motivated, organized and financed Envoy pilots or something spearheaded and funded by AAG and Envoy management. Considering the above realities at AA mainline, it would thus then be considered an unwanted, hostile act by all AA labor groups without resolution of their valid grievances and that in turn would plummet AA’s labor environment into civil war and I would argue be disastrous to an already substantially weakened product.

    No cheap or easy answer for this if you ask me and as long as the competition doesn’t have this as an advantage and they can staff (even feebly) their regionals, they’re not likely to get serious. Soon, IMO they WILL have a regional crisis requiring drastic considerations, but the timing of that is still unpredictable. Just my .02........
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 09-28-2018 at 11:29 AM.

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