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Thread: Regional Jets start making their way into mainline...

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    Registered User NoOtPilot's Avatar
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    Regional Jets start making their way into mainline...


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    I always tell the truth. Even when I lie.

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    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    Oh so the a220 is a regional jet, good to know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Oh so the a220 is a regional jet, good to know.
    Parker’s dream for sure. He’d like nothing better then to park 200+ AA Group II birds and put these or similar Embraer products in the Eagle system (or a code-share carrier morphed from the Eagle system). Spin the Eagle system off to the shareholders as a separate non-affiliated carrier with its own stock ? The 4 years or so to make the transition would mean no hiring at AA and attrition off the top. Displacements out of certain domiciles due to these aircraft replacing a shrinking Group II at AA for some. A lot of stagnation for those who flowed over before the whack. If AA gets another crack at BK strategically orchestrated or otherwise, AA pilots are in trouble on this one. Then again, if AA doesn’t end up in BK soon enough, perhaps they can convince Trump and Congress scope clauses are not in the interest of national security due to the financially crippling effects on our transportation system ? If not, then act on their own using a creative end-run including some form of the above.

    In the interim though, since it’s tough to see how AA could get financing for a new aircraft order considering their hideous debt, a new entity would probably have to be the source. Scope is most definitely on Parker’s radar and you know they are considering options and strategies to get what they want. Bottom of the AA list is a questionable place to be on many levels considering AA’s situation; HUGE debt, hamstrung in ability to grow, increasing fuel costs making NextGen small jets a necessity for many markets, depressed share price, etc. As it stands now, AA is on the sidelines regarding these aircraft while the Two premier legacies are moving forward. AA is trying to be both a premier legacy and LCC at the same time and accomplishing neither objective. Something’s got to give.

    Expect him to soon dust off his favorite statement to rationalize unwanted change (AKA concessions) from labor...............”The world has changed” and he will demand Scope be that change.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 09-20-2018 at 09:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Parker’s dream for sure. He’d like nothing better then to park 200+ AA Group II birds and put these or similar Embraer products in the Eagle system (or a code-share carrier morphed from the Eagle system). Spin the Eagle system off to the shareholders as a separate non-affiliated carrier with its own stock ? The 4 years or so to make the transition would mean no hiring at AA and attrition off the top. Displacements out of certain domiciles due to these aircraft replacing a shrinking Group II at AA for some. A lot of stagnation for those who flowed over before the whack. If AA gets another crack at BK strategically orchestrated or otherwise, AA pilots are in trouble on this one. Then again, if AA doesn’t end up in BK soon enough, perhaps they can convince Trump and Congress scope clauses are not in the interest of national security due to the financially crippling effects on our transportation system ? If not, then act on their own using a creative end-run including some form of the above.

    In the interim though, since it’s tough to see how AA could get financing for a new aircraft order considering their hideous debt, a new entity would probably have to be the source. Scope is most definitely on Parker’s radar and you know they are considering options and strategies to get what they want. Bottom of the AA list is a questionable place to be on many levels considering AA’s situation; HUGE debt, hamstrung in ability to grow, increasing fuel costs making NextGen small jets a necessity for many markets, depressed share price, etc. As it stands now, AA is on the sidelines regarding these aircraft while the Two premier legacies are moving forward. AA is trying to be both a premier legacy and LCC at the same time and accomplishing neither objective. Something’s got to give.

    Expect him to soon dust off his favorite statement to rationalize unwanted change (AKA concessions) from labor...............”The world has changed” and he will demand Scope be that change.

    Of course. Sounds good. However, that will not happen until staffing matches passenger load and passenger load predictions/forcasts(demand) which are set to continue to grow. This is a highly involved formula. Demand for air travel sees constant growth over decades. No reduction and constant increased demand. Do the the math. Aircraft+pilots+passenger demand. say 1 million people require travel in 12 hours. Using a formula that includes airman availability and available aircraft seats we find the required size of the aircraft. The other factor we all must consider is how to move the passengers as projected air travel grows. Volume, plus frequency, plus projected demand increases. We find that while saving on payroll with lesser paid crews we end up requiring twice as many crews to fly twice as many aircraft to increase frequency. Its not as easy as just adding more small planes while expanding regional contracted airlines with lower pay. Their also is a quality of air crew concern. The dynamic is not as simple as smaller planes save money. Consider fuel costs and other expenses and we find that the variables are many. If you are an airman, I suggest you go to work, do your job and go home. Leave the business decisions up to those with the expertise to keep the machine running. Or, get into aviation management studies and make a career change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belizeme22 View Post
    Of course. Sounds good. However, that will not happen until staffing matches passenger load and passenger load predictions/forcasts(demand) which are set to continue to grow. This is a highly involved formula. Demand for air travel sees constant growth over decades. No reduction and constant increased demand. Do the the math. Aircraft+pilots+passenger demand. say 1 million people require travel in 12 hours. Using a formula that includes airman availability and available aircraft seats we find the required size of the aircraft. The other factor we all must consider is how to move the passengers as projected air travel grows. Volume, plus frequency, plus projected demand increases. We find that while saving on payroll with lesser paid crews we end up requiring twice as many crews to fly twice as many aircraft to increase frequency. Its not as easy as just adding more small planes while expanding regional contracted airlines with lower pay. Their also is a quality of air crew concern. The dynamic is not as simple as smaller planes save money. Consider fuel costs and other expenses and we find that the variables are many. If you are an airman, I suggest you go to work, do your job and go home. Leave the business decisions up to those with the expertise to keep the machine running. Or, get into aviation management studies and make a career change.
    Exactly! He thinks he is some kind of aviation mangement planning gooru. Some just can't seem to get this above. Air travel is BOOMING. Retirements are BOOMING. The wave is coming our way and you better get on for the ride or get washed over.

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    Robert Isom’s Math


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    Fleet Transformation-Reducing Sub-fleet.

    Less fleet complexity. Improves customer experience and reduces operational friction.

    Number of Aircraft Sub-fleets
    2016-2022

    42% REDUCTION

    ~Robert Isom~
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    Last edited by NoOtPilot; 09-20-2018 at 01:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belizeme22 View Post
    Of course. Sounds good. However, that will not happen until staffing matches passenger load and passenger load predictions/forcasts(demand) which are set to continue to grow. This is a highly involved formula. Demand for air travel sees constant growth over decades. No reduction and constant increased demand. Do the the math. Aircraft+pilots+passenger demand. say 1 million people require travel in 12 hours. Using a formula that includes airman availability and available aircraft seats we find the required size of the aircraft. The other factor we all must consider is how to move the passengers as projected air travel grows. Volume, plus frequency, plus projected demand increases.
    Hmmm........in your first sentence, you seem to claim "staffing" is the apparent driver of the need for certain sized aircraft for certain sized routes ? I say that need is the foundation and staffing is simply a resource........ONE resource needed to take advantage of that. No one disputes demand for air travel will increase exponentially in the future, but we are talking apples and oranges here. Look at AA now, I'm sure they'd love to develop new routes (increase revenue and profit) if they had the right aircraft, like say The Embraer E2 series aircraft to fill in frequency on routes that would support a lower cost fill (especially Internationally to the Caribbean, Mexico and CA) or using their Group II aircraft more competitively instead of being forced to move more of them to defensive positions. Yet, AA has pulled out of profitable flying simply to shift to flying they believe will generate MORE profit, while the true premier legacies still have the resources for offense (doing both) and are proving it with moves not JUST like acquiring A220's for mainline and at more expensive pilot costs then AA now. Instead, even with substantial hiring, all AA can do is actually shrink the fleet while increasing block hours for "staff" by flying them more and longer hours. Additionally, I think you paint with too broad a brush in simplistic terms like your so called "highly involved formula" which is pretty basic math. I never implied simplicity in this situation, nor that any answer is just about "smaller planes save money" only that desire exists and ultimately necessity must occur because like it or not, AA's former more direct competition is able to do it, while AA seems unable on the mainline side. Perhaps "unwilling" is a better term ? True LCC's don't have regional partners, so just what IS AA ? Once the E-190's leave the seat gap from the A319 at 126 seats and the limited E-175 at 76-seats is too big a gap. Others will use these new aircraft on routes and due to their cost and appropriate size can do so more cheaply then AA, so sooner or later for AA in some way that gap will have to be filled (especially if fuel continues its present direction) or AA will just have to abandon more formerly marginally profitable (but still profitable) flying or pass on entering it. Pure LCC's with no wide bodies or owned regional airlines can do it cheaper, especially if they too join the NextGen market and AA isn't a premier legacy anymore, so again, something has to give. AA's always been a follower though and IMO, they will follow one way or the other.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belizeme22
    We find that while saving on payroll with lesser paid crews we end up requiring twice as many crews to fly twice as many aircraft to increase frequency. Its not as easy as just adding more small planes while expanding regional contracted airlines with lower pay. Their also is a quality of air crew concern. The dynamic is not as simple as smaller planes save money. Consider fuel costs and other expenses and we find that the variables are many. If you are an airman, I suggest you go to work, do your job and go home. Leave the business decisions up to those with the expertise to keep the machine running. Or, get into aviation management studies and make a career change.
    A quality of Air Crew concern ?

    You mean the same entities (including their political lapdog, the ATA) breaking their backs to ratchet entry-level pilot experience qualifications back to 500 hours or less ? You mean the same entities beating the bushes with anything and everything from a blitzkrieg of ads, many having dubious promises, 5-figure bonuses and pie-in-the-sky flow-thru schemes simply to get anyone with interest who can fog a mirror ? You mean the same entities willing to plow through candidates so marginal, some require upwards of 50 hours of IOE simply to meet past standards where more then 30 and you were let go ? Of course, in the case of Envoy, we know there is no problem with the concern of Air Crew quality as there are more then enough pilots for Envoy present and future because as one huckster put it they are "lined up around the corner" and another claims they are all but throwing themselves at Envoy, so why would this part of your "highly involved formula" matter in the situation of AA, NextGen small jets and Scope ? I mean, since Envoy doesn't need to concern itself with this particular part of your formula and Envoy is one of the likely components of the Scope considerations I put forth, this argument would seem moot, yes ?

    Again, this is all apples and oranges as your reply, while having some validity is off-target as to my point. My point wasn't about formulas, but desire by Parker to relax Scope and the potential implications to AA pilots, especially those junior should certain scenarios occur. There are ways to make that happen and either AA makes it happen or they leave that flying to someone else. Regardless of the potential obstacles you allude to, that goal IS in play, which really should surprise no one and the resources or lack thereof do not change that reality, only complicate it. As for your last sentence of condescending belittlement, if you are some kind of cube-based numbers cruncher for Envoy or there abouts, might I suggest you learn from yours or others past mistakes (which are many) and avoid lecturing others with mumbo-jumbo about "formulas", "math" and "variables" irrelevant to someone else's point ? I don't claim to be all-knowing, but I certainly didn't rationalize dumping half my pilots only to end up with egg on my face and then being later forced into paying staggeringly unprofitable compensation simply to correct my past errors, having to reenter hub/crew bases I previously abandoned in the process, nor did I jack my Corporation with upwards of 17 billion of debt, nor did I hamstring my operation into a situation of leaving profitable flying simply because it wasn't profitable enough due to self-inflicted limited resources while others can..........and have. But, just for the record, at the University I attended I combined both Aviation Maintenance with........you guessed it, Aviation Management. I guess I wasn't cut out for Airline Management though as I have too much ethical backbone. Finally, as for your suggestion of me just "going to work, doing my job and going home", I've done that my whole career and that's irrelevant as well to discussing opinions on pilot forums, but it's interesting you brought that up. Considering the well-known and even admitted culture problem within both AA and Envoy, don't you think it's time both joined the competition in seeing their pilots as more then just bricks in the back-pack to be seen and not heard leaving apparent experts such as yourself to continue to drive these companies into the dirt because they claim to know-it-all while history proves they didn't?

    Perhaps, you've been indoctrinated into alienation for too long (or hanging around with the well-known bad element present here) and you don't see it anymore ? I certainly see it in your post here, that's for sure. Since I don't recall any of my College curriculum having a "How to most effectively crap on my labor" course, I can only assume you've been exposed to that in your present, clearly dysfunctional situation and let's face it, what both AA and Envoy need LESS of are cubical captains telling them to mind their own business. What ever happened to the "Collaboration" that was touted in the past ?

    I guess it's simply not in one of your so-called "highly involved formula's", eh ? Time to come back and join the human race and see front-line employees differently. Your competition is and you are becoming increasingly smaller in their rear-view mirrors because of it and in that environment everyone loses.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 09-21-2018 at 10:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    Exactly! He thinks he is some kind of aviation mangement planning gooru. Some just can't seem to get this above. Air travel is BOOMING. Retirements are BOOMING. The wave is coming our way and you better get on for the ride or get washed over.
    Sounds great...................what could go wrong ?

    GET YOUR RED HOTS, FOLKS !!!!........................COME AND GET YOUR RED HOTS HERE !!!! STEP RIGHT UP !!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    Fleet Transformation-Reducing Sub-fleet.

    Less fleet complexity. Improves customer experience and reduces operational friction.

    Number of Aircraft Sub-fleets
    2016-2022

    42% REDUCTION

    ~Robert Isom~
    September 2018
    Remember all the orders and options just prior to Chapter 11 ? I guess the "highly involved formula" changed. It will change again.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 09-20-2018 at 03:24 PM.

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    Oh wow. Another 15 page manifesto from our resident whack wagon. Isn't it time for rec hour BB?

    Aside from that, the "points" you made were all superflous and made absolutely zero, ,zip, zilch in the sense department. What does your 30,000 foot view have to do with what is really going on here today at Envoy? It's obviously something you learned in the early 70s in that premiere aviation university you attended with antiquated views as old and no good as the APA adage, out of altitude, ideas and airspeed. The information and facts do not lie. We have more applicants than we know what to do with right now so yes, they are throwing themselves at Envoy in your terminology. In mine, it just means that a bunch of smart guys got even smarter, even if it means waiting a little while to get in here. In addition, the pipeline program is going full blast churning out mega numbers that are going to be the staffing backbone of Envoy for years to come. Unfortunately there was stagnation back in your day but that is absolutely not the case now. You were considered very LUCKY to flow to AA back in late 90s, early 00s. Today, it's just part of who Envoy is, an extension of American that happens to fly different equipment and provides a career path for those interested in aviation in which they never have to work at a different company again from day one here.

    Get your muddled facts straight and stop spewing out a bunch of garbage that makes no sense and is designed to distract and divert attention away from the seriously good things happening here now.
    Last edited by Koojo; 09-20-2018 at 03:28 PM.

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    “We have more applicants than we know what to do with right now so yes, they are throwing themselves at Envoy“

    So, why are Days Off, PVD’s...
    “Denied due to staffing levels?”
    Last edited by NoOtPilot; 09-20-2018 at 04:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koojo View Post
    Oh wow. Another 15 page manifesto from our resident whack wagon. Isn't it time for rec hour BB?

    Aside from that, the "points" you made were all superflous and made absolutely zero, ,zip, zilch in the sense department. What does your 30,000 foot view have to do with what is really going on here today at Envoy? It's obviously something you learned in the early 70s in that premiere aviation university you attended with antiquated views as old and no good as the APA adage, out of altitude, ideas and airspeed. The information and facts do not lie. We have more applicants than we know what to do with right now so yes, they are throwing themselves at Envoy in your terminology. In mine, it just means that a bunch of smart guys got even smarter, even if it means waiting a little while to get in here. In addition, the pipeline program is going full blast churning out mega numbers that are going to be the staffing backbone of Envoy for years to come. Unfortunately there was stagnation back in your day but that is absolutely not the case now. You were considered very LUCKY to flow to AA back in late 90s, early 00s. Today, it's just part of who Envoy is, an extension of American that happens to fly different equipment and provides a career path for those interested in aviation in which they never have to work at a different company again from day one here.

    Get your muddled facts straight and stop spewing out a bunch of garbage that makes no sense and is designed to distract and divert attention away from the seriously good things happening here now.
    Speaking of "muddled facts", it's more like 3 paragraphs and the post in reference was about Parker's desire to loosen scope and what it might involve. No formula's needed. Oh well...............all this and STILL bankrupt of a post with substance. Well........keep trying son, I'm rooting for you.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 09-20-2018 at 04:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    “We have more applicants than we know what to do with right now so yes, they are throwing themselves at Envoy“

    So, why are Days Off, PVD’s...are still
    “Denied due to staffing levels?”
    Again, it must be a highly involved formula pilots are too thick to understand. I guess you could just follow Slide Rule Stanley's apparent demand that you simply show up for work, do your job and go home or said another way, "the beatings will continue until morale improves".
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 09-20-2018 at 04:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Speaking of "muddled facts", it's more like 3 paragraphs and the post in reference was about Parker's desire to loosen scope and what it might involve. No formula's needed. Oh well...............all this and STILL bankrupt of a post with substance. Well........keep trying son, I'm rooting for you.
    I've already won old man. As you are aware, there are a few of us on this forum who think alike. We happen to know each other and agree on the FACTS that the posters here are a MINORITY of what is represented in the pilot corps at Envoy. Our goal here has been to post factually accurate and positive information. Also, to wipe the ranks of dissension here and send you guys packing to another forum that shares your views. This is to stop the constant barrage of lies, deceit along with the hate and vitriol that you spew. Largely, we have been successful. There are several negative posters who seemingly have chosen to depart the forum not to return. Hopefully it is due to the fact of no longer being able to be unrestrained in the constant criticism without rebuttal. That has absolutely been successful. When you rebut lies, deceit and spin with FACTUAL INFORMATION, it does wonders to those who have no argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koojo View Post
    I've already won old man. As you are aware, there are a few of us on this forum who think alike. We happen to know each other and agree on the FACTS that the posters here are a MINORITY of what is represented in the pilot corps at Envoy. Our goal here has been to post factually accurate and positive information. Also, to wipe the ranks of dissension here and send you guys packing to another forum that shares your views. This is to stop the constant barrage of lies, deceit along with the hate and vitriol that you spew. Largely, we have been successful. There are several negative posters who seemingly have chosen to depart the forum not to return. Hopefully it is due to the fact of no longer being able to be unrestrained in the constant criticism without rebuttal. That has absolutely been successful. When you rebut lies, deceit and spin with FACTUAL INFORMATION, it does wonders to those who have no argument.
    If you really believed you've "won" something kid, you'd not be twisting yourself into a pretzel and foaming at the mouth about virtually every post I make. But I have no doubt you believe that. After all, you and your tag team of hucksters still think I express my opinions here for the purpose of influencing pilots not to come to Envoy, something no pilot can do. Virtually everyone with some sanity understands that. Keep clicking your heels Dorothy and keep swinging for that fence. One day, you may make contact. In the meantime, your perfect streak of substantively bankrupt posts continues.........

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    In 27 months they won’t be able to sell the flow.

    ⏳⏳⏳

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    American Airlines and Delta Air Lines Just Spoke to the Same Audience. The Difference Was Stunning...

    One, Paul Jacobson, is the EVP and CFO of Delta Air Lines. The other is Robert Isom, President of American Airlines.

    Jacobson describes the Delta culture and how the airline focused itself on making customers feel positive about the brand experience.

    Jacobson spoke about the airline's culture and how it contributes to the airline's financial performance.

    When passengers are happy because they receive good customer service, they'll pay more and recommend the airline to others.

    Isom's tone was different. Very different. His theme was investment.

    American, he said, is investing "in people, in facilities, in product and especially in fleet."
    Ah, so fleet is more important than people? I fear one or two American Airlines customers might shiver at that notion.
    And here's how he described American's aim: "A more efficient, reliable airline."

    And what's remarkable is that Isom, unlike Jacobson, had nothing to say about how his airline's culture could make humans feel better and therefore spend more.

    Instead, Isom crowed about American aiming to have the youngest fleet of the major airlines.

    This tends toward the sexy. But that fleet will have more seats stuffed inside each plane, bathrooms only slightly wider than your average fashion model and less legroom not only for Economy Class passengers, but for First Class too.

    Will they be happier because they're in a new plane? Or will they be more miserable because they're more uncomfortable?
    Isom's whole presentation was crystallized when he admitted that the airline had tried to make its Sub-Cattle Class - Basic Economy to you -- even more painful, unlike Delta

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    Actually, this isn’t surprising. Delta is a people-oriented premier legacy with a different product then AA. AA is morphing toward the Spirit Airlines product where it’s not so much about people, but assets, costs and ROI. Think Walmart. I don’t hold out much hope for a Delta culture at AA or say, an Endeavor culture at Envoy, but clearly I think they don’t care as they have defined their product and the best way to realize that. Apparently, that product relies less on people.

    To wit, at AA negotiations with the mechanics are stalled with both sides far apart, the F/A’s just got slapped in the face with a new draconian sick policy and the pilots don’t have a prayer getting an industry leading contract, so I’m skeptical of a future realization of “reliability”. You need motivated people for that. Sadly, it appears the future points to a continuation of the past where AA and its affiliates were known as the poster child for bad labor relations and like it or not, the airline industry IS a service industry. Delta gets it, at least insofar as shooting for a superior product.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 09-22-2018 at 11:14 AM.

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