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Thread: Delta asking Flight Attendants to become Pilots

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    Delta asking Flight Attendants to become Pilots


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    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/16/help...may-apply.html

    Published 10:02 AM ET Tue, 17 July 2018

    Delta Air Lines is asking flight attendants, ticket agents and other employees to consider taking a seat at the cockpit controls.
    Delta declined to disclose pilot pay, but the median pilot salary in May was $78,740, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The Air Line Pilots Association, the union that represents Delta, United and several other airlines' pilots, said pay at regional carriers, which offer a hiring pool for big commercial airlines, can be less than half that amount. Captains at major airlines can make more than $100,000.


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    AA did it in the mid 90's. Get your ratings, go to eagle 1 year and off to aa.

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    The pilot shortage is still in it adolescence. After it ravages the regionals and it then impacts the two legacies and other LCC’s, will it truly become a crisis. But, we have to be realistic about this potential source of future pilots and that’s it will be a very small source. For every 100 non-pilot employees who might want to pursue this, only a handful will have the required aptitude. Not everyone can become a competent airline pilot even with top notch training. In fact, most can’t and THAT is the problem. Sure, a major obstacle is cost (and associated time), but more so, it’s interest and then further it’s ability. By the time 100 people with interest are whittled down due to cost and time, aptitude is all that left and that either exists or doesn’t and cannot be bought or trained.

    Same goes for every other source of future airline pilots. The military will become less of a source, because they too can not afford to lose the ones they get and that just puts more burden on other sources. The executives in this industry got too greedy and overconfident and assumed pilots would always be a dime-a-dozen. They were wrong.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 08-09-2018 at 05:31 AM.

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    Also how many of those non pilot employees will want to put up with the "airline life"?

    Try fixing Some of the QOL issues we pilots have to deal with and you might get more people in the pipeline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiz5422 View Post
    Also how many of those non pilot employees will want to put up with the "airline life"?

    Try fixing Some of the QOL issues we pilots have to deal with and you might get more people in the pipeline.
    You can take that common sense and get right the hell outta here! We’ve got flow!
    Warlord of the crewroom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiz5422 View Post
    Also how many of those non pilot employees will want to put up with the "airline life"?

    Try fixing Some of the QOL issues we pilots have to deal with and you might get more people in the pipeline.
    Emotionally, I want to agree with that, but realistically IMO, virtually none of them consider that. Those already working as say F/A’s already know that and if they still explored this option, it means they accept that. Many non flight-crew airline employees assume pilots have it pretty good. Those on the outside are clueless and in fact, even when they have a clue, it’s all too frequently disregarded. To wit, very few present Envoy pilots (or past Eagle pilots for that matter) passed up Envoy (or Eagle) even when they know QWL (and in the past, pay) sucked.

    The bigger component is simple math. There just won’t be enough candidates that first have the interest, second make the effort and financial sacrifice (even with a loan, you have to pay it back) and finally, demonstrate the ability and aptitude. Again, with 100 at the starting line (regardless of the source at initial non-qualification), less than 10 will ultimately end up in the F/O’s seat at the end. It is only at that point they are introduced to the reality of the lifestyle which is now ZERO glamour. Similar incomes can be had in many other job classifications with a fraction of the abuse and time on the road and yet most who have made it don’t quit, they suck it up in the hope for an ultimate pay off.

    The projected need for future pilots both globally and domestically will ultimately be too much for the available pool. The fact this once attractive profession has been dumbed down to “just a job” only aggravates the situation. I’ve counseled more than one young person on avoiding this job. Even Chesley Sullenberger said he’d recommend against pursuing becoming an airline pilot considering the environment pilots are in now. It’s one you also need an entire back-up ready to go at a moments notice should you lose your medical certificate (especially at AA), which means even if you do make it through all those obstacles, it can all end in a minute and you’ll have little or nothing to show for it but memories and will likely have to start from scratch at whatever age you are should that happen.

    If one REALLY considers all that, it’s easy to see the crap shoot it is and the risks therin. This lifestyle is NOT conducive to good health either. It’s no wonder why so many don’t consider this “job” seriously. If there was greater ROI and better protections, perhaps more would come, but the scams and fluffy sales pitches (from MOST carriers) don’t talk about that, only pretty pictures of glamorous ghosts of the past that are now non-existent. Of course, what else can they do ?

    Even they now know they are in deepening trouble as time goes on.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 08-08-2018 at 04:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vne View Post
    You can take that common sense and get right the hell outta here! We’ve got flow!
    “Common sense” and pilots........when it comes to career due diligence and planning ?

    A few maybe, but for most, there’s no such thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    The pilot shortage is still in it adolescence. After it ravages the regionals and it then impacts the two legacies and other LCC’s, will it truly become a crisis. But, we have to be realistic about this potential source of future pilots and that’s it will be a very small source. For every 100 non-pilot employees who might want to pursue this, only a handful will have the required aptitude. Not everyone can become a competent airline pilot even with top notch training. In fact, most can’t and THAT is the problem. Sure, a major obstacle is cost (and associated time), but more so, it’s interest and then further it’s ability. By the time 100 people with interest are whittled down due to cost and time, aptitude is all that left and that either exists or doesn’t and cannot be bought or trained.

    Same goes for every other source of future airline pilots. The military will become less of a source, because they too can not afford to lose the ones they get and that just puts more burden on other sources. The executives in this industry got too greedy and overconfident and assumed pilots would always be a dime-a-dozen. They were wrong.
    Initially I read this and tried to stay on the sidelines. However, the statements made above are just so blatantly false that I cannot do that. I've never read a more ill conceived and obviously biased post. It lacks substance and it lacks truth. Have you any knowledge of Envoy's applicant pool? Do you know how many apps are on file or are received each week? Or any other regional for that matter. Are you aware of the pipeline pilot program now in full swing at Envoy as well as other carriers? It's obvious that you are not familiar so let me help you. Envoy was one of the pioneers of this groundbreaking program to basically hire flight instructors currently teaching at an approved university as they get their hours up and then bring them on board.

    Have you walked the halls of the flight program on the campuses of UND, Embry Riddle or US Aviation? Again, I think not so let me help you. These flight programs are full of raw talent. Both on the teaching end as well as the learning end. The teachers move on to Envoy and their students become the teachers and the cycle perpetuates itself. I am amazed at the amount of students in these programs and their level of excitement for the profession and eventually moving on to Envoy and then AA.

    You speak of a pipeline of pilots that is dry with no one coming on board and the regional management teams throwing their hands up. Take a look above. Envoy management was a trailblazer and the classes are full. Envoy will have ZERO problems staffing up to 3000 plus and beyond. Stop kidding yourself.

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    Guess you dont fly with these pipeline pilots and hear how they regret hooking up with the largest airline in the world ranked 3rd in the USA and there regional that will stinks. Their words not mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koojo View Post
    Initially I read this and tried to stay on the sidelines. However, the statements made above are just so blatantly false that I cannot do that. I've never read a more ill conceived and obviously biased post. It lacks substance and it lacks truth. Have you any knowledge of Envoy's applicant pool? Do you know how many apps are on file or are received each week? Or any other regional for that matter. Are you aware of the pipeline pilot program now in full swing at Envoy as well as other carriers? It's obvious that you are not familiar so let me help you. Envoy was one of the pioneers of this groundbreaking program to basically hire flight instructors currently teaching at an approved university as they get their hours up and then bring them on board.
    What do the empty claims above have to do with with the reality of zero-time NON-pilots not yet demonstrating aptitude and ability even if they might have the interest ? You talk of Envoy hiring already aptitude qualified pilots (with CFI’s) as “groundbreaking” yet that has little to do with the point of my post. You appear blinded by your obsession that everything I say is somehow angled toward Envoy, the flow or in this case, your precious “pipeline” program. This was an INDUSTRY related post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koojo View Post
    Have you walked the halls of the flight program on the campuses of UND, Embry Riddle or US Aviation? Again, I think not so let me help you. These flight programs are full of raw talent. Both on the teaching end as well as the learning end. The teachers move on to Envoy and their students become the teachers and the cycle perpetuates itself. I am amazed at the amount of students in these programs and their level of excitement for the profession and eventually moving on to Envoy and then AA.
    Most of those potential pilots will indeed succeed, but that is NOT the same as dragging the ranks of employees who have never thought of being a pilot or beating the streets for anyone who can fog a mirror and it’s going to take one hell of a lot more then present University students in flight programs to meet this industries needs and Envoy’s especially, hence the point of doing exactly that. The industry executives know that and that’s why they are throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the problem they now know is destined to be a crisis. Additionally, .......and I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but MANY of the pilots you describe will not be coming to Envoy. You talk as if every University student exploring flight is lying in bed fantasizing about Envoy and/or AA. An intoxicating Kool-Aid induced fantasy, yes......but not reality. Also, where you got the idea I was insulting those individuals who are and will succeed, is YOUR misguided conclusion, NOT my insinuation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koojo View Post
    You speak of a pipeline of pilots that is dry with no one coming on board and the regional management teams throwing their hands up. Take a look above. Envoy management was a trailblazer and the classes are full. Envoy will have ZERO problems staffing up to 3000 plus and beyond. Stop kidding yourself.
    Again, my post had little to do with Envoy’s “pipeline pilots” as they have ALREADY demonstrated aptitude. I’m talking about the TENS of thousands of pilots this industry will need from outside sources whose majority have yet demonstrated that potential. Believe all you want that the industry or Envoy is smoothly sailing through troubled waters, but you’re in denial my friend. If that were the case and pilots WERE still a dime-a-dozen, Envoy would be doing what it did years ago, i.e., simply hiring from a healthy pool instead of desperate acts of paying over $100,000 to new-hires to get them in the door.

    Nice try again “Koojo”, but your delusion is now no longer a solo act, it has been joined by its close relative, fantasy.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 08-09-2018 at 08:14 PM.

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    I certainly expect this kind of venom out of you but I have the facts and you don't so you are essentially spitting into the wind to try and gain some traction. The fact is that the flight programs at the partner universities are full. All of these young guys and ladies are eager, ready and willing to get to Envoy to begin their AA career. The facts here are that the supply is unlimited. The apps to get into these partner universities are at all time highs.

    This is the NEW American, not the old AMR/Eagle way of doing things. The NEW American and Envoy have been aggressive in their recruiting efforts to get only the top notch candidates. After all, they are being hired for a lifelong career at American Airlines. Again, it's obvious if you walk through a partner university. The old AMR never would have partnered with a university and provided an unlimited flow and career path to the biggest major airline. The new American however, recognizes the talent that's available out there and are sweeping them up by the truckload. There is NO shortage of candidates who want to work for American. There is NO problem hiring at Envoy. Zero. Some regionals might be taking anyone with a pulse. Not so at Envoy. Apps that don't make the cut go right into the round file.

    In fact, I would bet my entire pay for this year that you would not even make the cut to be hired at Envoy today. Things are different now. But I certainly don't expect for you to know that.

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    They just need to prove they had a pulse in the last 6 months in order to get hired at envoy today, and then 30 percent will be out by probation period end for inability to fly an airplane and chew gum simultaneously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    They just need to prove they had a pulse in the last 6 months in order to get hired at envoy today, and then 30 percent will be out by probation period end for inability to fly an airplane and chew gum simultaneously.
    Oh wow, thanks so much for that wonderfully enlightening nugget of information. I'm sure you got your info in the crew room while beyotching about the company with a couple of your buddies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koojo View Post
    Oh wow, thanks so much for that wonderfully enlightening nugget of information. I'm sure you got your info in the crew room while beyotching about the company with a couple of your buddies.
    Wrong, if you worked in the school house or talked to a few APDs you would understand the caliber of some of our new FOs.

    Don't get me wrong that there are a lot of good people that we are hiring, but the caliber of a lot of them aren't even close to ones we hired 3 to 5 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiz5422 View Post
    Wrong, if you worked in the school house or talked to a few APDs you would understand the caliber of some of our new FOs.

    Don't get me wrong that there are a lot of good people that we are hiring, but the caliber of a lot of them aren't even close to ones we hired 3 to 5 years ago.
    Or talked to some of the line CAs and check airmen that are actually in the airplane with some of these guys. Horror stories. And it's not only some of the new FOs. Some of the DECs are a nightmare as well. It's scary what's going on out there right now.

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    Hey koojo, my enlightenment comes from
    1. Flying with them
    2. Teaching them
    3. APD's
    4. Sim instructors
    You know, from all the people in the know, where as you get your info from your enlightened blow hole which is enlarged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koojo View Post
    I certainly expect this kind of venom out of you but I have the facts and you don't so you are essentially spitting into the wind to try and gain some traction. The fact is that the flight programs at the partner universities are full. All of these young guys and ladies are eager, ready and willing to get to Envoy to begin their AA career. The facts here are that the supply is unlimited. The apps to get into these partner universities are at all time highs.

    This is the NEW American, not the old AMR/Eagle way of doing things. The NEW American and Envoy have been aggressive in their recruiting efforts to get only the top notch candidates. After all, they are being hired for a lifelong career at American Airlines. Again, it's obvious if you walk through a partner university. The old AMR never would have partnered with a university and provided an unlimited flow and career path to the biggest major airline. The new American however, recognizes the talent that's available out there and are sweeping them up by the truckload. There is NO shortage of candidates who want to work for American. There is NO problem hiring at Envoy. Zero. Some regionals might be taking anyone with a pulse. Not so at Envoy. Apps that don't make the cut go right into the round file.

    In fact, I would bet my entire pay for this year that you would not even make the cut to be hired at Envoy today. Things are different now. But I certainly don't expect for you to know that.
    Rambling irrelevant posts based on hysterical delusion do nothing for credibility. You obviously haven’t listened to a thing I’ve said and are locked into your own Envoy/AA narrative perpetually pulling the same string in your back. With any more “traction” like this, I think someone should wave you off the track before you hit the wall. A point of correction though; The flow to AA is not “unlimited”. If anything is “aggressive”, it’s the effort to ensure the flow occurs at minimum rate and I can’t blame Envoy for that considering the future of regional pilot availability.

    If there was no blossoming regional pilot crisis, Envoy wouldn't be running the flow mixture so lean.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 08-11-2018 at 07:45 AM.

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