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Thread: Delta flow

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    Have your read the fine print? Number one, they did copy Envoy. Number two, it's a half assed attempt. There are absolutely no guarantees for this 42 month deal they are advertising. Nothing at all like what we've got here. So, go read the fine print and get back to me.
    I have read the fine print and I’m back.

    #1. They did NOT copy Envoy. THIS Delta initiative is modeled around “college, company and community”. The “college” pathway does NOT require 5-6 years of indentured survitude at a regional airline and so the point is not to fill Delta’s regionals as the primary purpose. There are other pathways in that segment. The “company” aspect directly promotes present employees in other (non-flight) departments to pursue pilot qualifications, something neither AA nor Envoy does as far as I’m aware. In fact, Envoy’s flow isn’t even Envoy’s, it’s AAG’s and applies equally to 2 other airlines. The “community” approach isn’t an Envoy product either, so Delta isn’t “copying” Envoy regarding these fundamental methods of pilot attractions.

    #2. As stated by others, Envoy doesn’t offer any more of a guarantee then Delta. Actually if anything, they should be commended for being more honest and accurately representing the potential for those who pursue this offer by whatever pathway. So far, I have yet to find any Delta conmen inflating, embellishing or outright misrepresenting this or any other Delta pilot program. I understand your anger and jealousy at the thought of pilots going DIRECTLY to the premier legacy carrier in less then 4 years and a subsequent career that will net them many hundreds of thousands and perhaps even millions of more dollars then those now at Envoy who might make it to AA AFTER they make it to Delta, but what can you do ?

    Haters gonna hate and flip-floppers gonna flip.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 07-19-2018 at 07:28 PM.

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    Career Assistance Program. AA/Envoy rolled out an employee-to-pilot program almost a year ago. There have already been two rounds of people selected who are getting their hours with funding from the company (up to $30k)

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    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    Career Assistance Program. AA/Envoy rolled out an employee-to-pilot program almost a year ago. There have already been two rounds of people selected who are getting their hours with funding from the company (up to $30k)
    Your not going to get him to believe that or anything else that's true. All he sees is Envoy in flames and collapsing no matter what.

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    Registered User NoOtPilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    Your not going to get him to believe that or anything else that's true. All he sees is Envoy in flames and collapsing no matter what.
    Over $6,000,000 in bonuses and funding in the past 12 months for new hires and helicopters pilots. Recruitment blowing the budget at an incredible rate. Very true, Envoy will be around for a long time, is one of the ways to get to AA, little slow, no guarantees, over 1,500 pilots in 18.5 years of flow history, and nobody has flowed with less than 11 years in the company. But it is still working.
    Last edited by NoOtPilot; 07-20-2018 at 07:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    Career Assistance Program. AA/Envoy rolled out an employee-to-pilot program almost a year ago. There have already been two rounds of people selected who are getting their hours with funding from the company (up to $30k)
    As stated, I wasn’t aware of that so I stand corrected. I have also stated multiple times before I have been wrong and more then willing to BE corrected. But, in reading Delta’s program, it is one tailored to move prospective pilots DIRECTLY to Delta as opposed to AA’s to fill their regionals and that is a major distinction of difference. Yes, the regional option still exists too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    Over $6,000,000 in bonuses and funding in the past 12 months for new hires and helicopters pilots. Recruitment blowing the budget at an incredible rate. Very true, Envoy will be around for a long time, is one of the ways to get to AA, little slow, no guarantees, over 1,500 pilots in 18.5 years of flow history, and nobody has flowed with less than 11 years in the company. But it is still working.
    True. I’ve stated multiple times in the past Envoy isn’t “collapsing in flames” as the flipper claims. The flow does exist, but is running as slow as can be made to by those that control it, which is fact. No surprise as that’s been consistent since its inception in 1997 (first actual movement at end of 1998). But again, the flow is dependent on a cyclical industry that has many red flags right now, so what is happening today can’t be counted on tomorrow. Even with AAG throwing the kitchen sink at the regional pilot conundrum, can Envoy get enough pilots to fill its classes in perpetuity to ensure the flow never slows further or stops ?

    That’s the bet one makes if coming to Envoy and doing (or considering) nothing else in the interim. Additionally, as we both know, what will a pilot who DOES make it to AA risk facing in a few years if the cycle again acts like a cycle ? Parker considers this in the latest 10-K filing regarding the realities af AAG’s staggering debt and the risks are there, especially 2021 and beyond.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 07-20-2018 at 08:16 AM.

  7. #27
    Registered User DolphinsFan's Avatar
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    The facts haven't changed that the Envoy flow is the single BEST way to get to a major airline. Not to mention, the biggest. Whatever Delta is trying to copycat here won't work simply because they aren't setting it up that way. The flow is contractual. This Delta plan is not. It's a company policy and can be rescinded at any time. Come to Delta for the Zero to Hero plan and land in a Delta jet in 42 months? Sorry, Delta just changed their policy. They need you at Endeavor for an open ended time frame now. The flow here is the exact opposite. No matter how hard the poo slingers and haters try to convince you that Envoy's flow is CRAP and it SUCKS the fact remains that it is CONTRACTUAL and there are numbers that have to be filled each and every month. This is not the case for Delta's program.

    If Delta is your thing then come to Envoy and keep the flow in your back pocket and apply off the street to Delta. Going through their program could end up very badly. I'm just sayin.

  8. #28
    Registered User NoOtPilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    The facts haven't changed that the Envoy flow is the single BEST way to get to a major airline. Not to mention, the biggest. Whatever Delta is trying to copycat here won't work simply because they aren't setting it up that way. The flow is contractual. This Delta plan is not. It's a company policy and can be rescinded at any time. Come to Delta for the Zero to Hero plan and land in a Delta jet in 42 months? Sorry, Delta just changed their policy. They need you at Endeavor for an open ended time frame now. The flow here is the exact opposite. No matter how hard the poo slingers and haters try to convince you that Envoy's flow is CRAP and it SUCKS the fact remains that it is CONTRACTUAL and there are numbers that have to be filled each and every month. This is not the case for Delta's program.

    If Delta is your thing then come to Envoy and keep the flow in your back pocket and apply off the street to Delta. Going through their program could end up very badly. I'm just sayin.
    Could you copy, paste and post where it explains this?

    “They need you at Endeavor for an open ended time frame now.”

    Or is this a lie...?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by NoOtPilot; 07-20-2018 at 05:41 PM.

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    Everything above is false. This is just a way for current line employees to become Delta pilots.

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    Word is Endeavor is close to having a real flow negotiated with Delta. Can’t wait to see fish sticks reaction when Envoy is no longer “the best flow”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Everything above is false. This is just a way for current line employees to become Delta pilots.
    ......and you are the standard for honesty and truth on this forum ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytrails View Post
    Word is Endeavor is close to having a real flow negotiated with Delta. Can’t wait to see fish sticks reaction when Envoy is no longer “the best flow”.
    Haven’t heard this, but I’ve stated my belief it’s only a matter of time before Delta and UAL match (and likely exceed) AA’s flow system. They really will have no choice. In the future, the “best” flows will arguably be to a legacy carrier and there are only two left, Delta and United. The LCC’s like AA, Jet Blue, Sprit and Frontier will need them too though. Alaska will have a move up system with Horizon and I believe already does although less formally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Everything above is false. This is just a way for current line employees to become Delta pilots.
    Wrong. That’s only 1 of 3 different ways to get hired at delta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Haven’t heard this, but I’ve stated my belief it’s only a matter of time before Delta and UAL match (and likely exceed) AA’s flow system. They really will have no choice. In the future, the “best” flows will arguably be to a legacy carrier and there are only two left, Delta and United. The LCC’s like AA, Jet Blue, Sprit and Frontier will need them too though. Alaska will have a move up system with Horizon and I believe already does although less formally.
    What’s your big obsession with insisting AA is now a LCC? Both you and fish sticks are ridiculous in opposite directions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytrails View Post
    What’s your big obsession with insisting AA is now a LCC? Both you and fish sticks are ridiculous in opposite directions.
    Ridiculous ?

    AA’s product is at or closer to LCC’s then true legacies. AA’s pilot compensation, treatment and scheduling are also at or closer to LCC’s. In fact, some LCC’s contractual pilot provisions are actually better then AA’s. You must be intoxicated with size, but that metric doesn’t mean that much to pilots.

    It sounds as though this new reality is hard for you to swallow, but the “old” AA died with the BK and merger and the new management are in fact LCC guru’s and AA shows it. Of course, if you want to pretend otherwise, be my guest. Fact is, AA pilots will see very little improvement in their lifestyles going forward and will almost certainly never catch Delta and United. They might get higher pay rates, but Parker will want scope concessions even for that. Like it or not, THAT is the reality of your future flow.

    Bon Appetit !

    Besides.........there’s nothing wrong with LCC’s, they’re just a different product for customers and a different reality for pilots. Time to get with the new AA program !
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 07-22-2018 at 09:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytrails View Post
    Both you and fish sticks are ridiculous in opposite directions.
    Most people here recognize that actually. Basically on one end you have DaCuj and Dolphinsfan, and on the other you have BeagleBoy and ardvark. Anyone not in one of the above camps is accused of being party to the other. It's sort of like "the media" in today's dialogue. Fox vs The Media, and all of us just want NPR.

    Compare any lengthy post by either camp and both employ similar dialog and methods for delivering their point. Engage however you want, but I've learned the more they engage the other camps, the more non-aligned pilots are isolated. Given that all is what happens here, EL being dead, there isn't much discussion anymore. APC is actually pretty civil compared to how it was. Mainly just new hires helping each other out and honest discussions of merits of coming here or not. Never thought I'd see that day.


    hoc est a temere phrase latine

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    Let's stop with the ridiculous assertions here that AA is a LCC. It's akin to saying that the Wright Brothers were in the car business and believed that flight was a fallacy cooked up by lunatics. It's blatantly false just as the assertion that AA is an LCC is "false." Not only is AA a "major," it is "the" largest major in the "world."

    Some here that have deep seated hatred toward the company resort to tactics such as these to get attention. Like screaming "fire" in a crowded movie theater when there isn't one, these tactics have proven false over and over and quite frankly, the majority of AA/Envoy do not think in this manner. Most are quite happy to be employed at the biggest and best in the world. And yes, I do include Envoy in the equation as it represents the best of being owned wholly by AAG. You will always have detractors in every facet of society and it is no different here. It's just up to the majority to stop being silent and get on forums such as these to refute such ridiculous claims.

    The fact is that AA is the "biggest" in the world. The fact is Envoy provides the best opportunity for those who desire a career at the biggest in the world. Your first day at Envoy is the first day of your AA career. Don't let anyone tell you that this is false and I personally am inviting the majority here, yes I see many views but few comments, to speak up and remind the detractors that most don't feel this way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snippercr View Post
    Most people here recognize that actually. Basically on one end you have DaCuj and Dolphinsfan, and on the other you have BeagleBoy and ardvark. Anyone not in one of the above camps is accused of being party to the other. It's sort of like "the media" in today's dialogue. Fox vs The Media, and all of us just want NPR.

    Compare any lengthy post by either camp and both employ similar dialog and methods for delivering their point. Engage however you want, but I've learned the more they engage the other camps, the more non-aligned pilots are isolated. Given that all is what happens here, EL being dead, there isn't much discussion anymore. APC is actually pretty civil compared to how it was. Mainly just new hires helping each other out and honest discussions of merits of coming here or not. Never thought I'd see that day.


    hoc est a temere phrase latine
    Not a bad observation actually. But, if one wants to know why Envoy has sunk to the point of having a Swiss cheese contract, fully impotent union and little seniority system, it’s that same lack of concern for reality. New-hires no nothing beyond the tips of their noses and so history repeats itself in perpetuity, but ignorance is bliss and so bliss is embraced.

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    Hey koojo, the Wright brothers were in the bicycle business. How stupid are you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snippercr View Post
    Most people here recognize that actually. Basically on one end you have DaCuj and Dolphinsfan, and on the other you have BeagleBoy and ardvark. Anyone not in one of the above camps is accused of being party to the other. It's sort of like "the media" in today's dialogue. Fox vs The Media, and all of us just want NPR.

    Compare any lengthy post by either camp and both employ similar dialog and methods for delivering their point. Engage however you want, but I've learned the more they engage the other camps, the more non-aligned pilots are isolated. Given that all is what happens here, EL being dead, there isn't much discussion anymore. APC is actually pretty civil compared to how it was. Mainly just new hires helping each other out and honest discussions of merits of coming here or not. Never thought I'd see that day.


    hoc est a temere phrase latine
    I can see you are going for the middle ground here. Nothing wrong with that. Serious question though. If I remember correctly, a couple of years ago, seems like both on the lounge and APC, you were pretty hardcore going with the pro Envoy 2.5/6 camp. Am I wrong or did you have a change of heart after seeing the company lies and violation of the contract on a regular basis since then.

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