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Thread: Delta flow

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    Am I reading this correctly? 42 months flow for college grads? Propel.delta.com

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    Total gimmick.

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    Like I said. Gimmick. They are just copying the Envoy pipeline program that has been in place for quite some time.

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    Stop being so dense! Ya DELTA COPYING lol. Because we are also college grad to 42mos in a mainline seat... big NOPE on that one. Get a life.

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    Ummmm, I don’t think you know what gimmick means. If you do then you just called envoys pipeline program a trick.

    42 months is less than 6 years right? My calculator is out of batteries from all the paper weight and balances we’ve had to do lately in the heat with inop apus and pcas

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    I’m sure there’s some tricky fine print in there, but I haven’t read the details yet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkvisual View Post
    Ummmm, I don’t think you know what gimmick means. If you do then you just called envoys pipeline program a trick.

    42 months is less than 6 years right? My calculator is out of batteries from all the paper weight and balances we’ve had to do lately in the heat with inop apus and pcas
    Delta also realizes that the present pilot shortage for regionals (soon to be full blown crisis) will eventually hit them too. It's important to consider that Delta will need 8000 pilots over the next decade which averages 800 PILOTS/YEAR. One major difference is that Delta has more stringent requirements (for now) accepting only college grads, whereas AA only requires a high school diploma. Future pilot-wise, it appears Delta will skim the cream while AA goes for anything they can get. Most Envoy pilots have a Bachelor's degree anyway and that means over the next decade there WILL be many opportunities to consider non AA flow career pathways. Also, consider the end destination. Delta IS a premier global legacy with the best pilot pay and working conditions out there. They are also an extremely well run corporation with a sound balance sheet. AA on the other hand is in mid-descent toward solidifying itself as a mediocre LCC whose pilot pay and working conditions are likely to fall further from their present approximately 6th place position. It is also a corporation loaded with massive debt and thus far greater risk. AA pilots contract openers start next year, but the trend for AA indicates they will be unable (read, unwilling) to offer anything of significance and also will demand scope concessions which will not be good for flows. If AA orders a bunch of NextGen Group I aircraft, most of the seats will be filled by flows who would have been on Group II scale as that is the aircraft they would be replacing. A combination of both moves, is even worse.

    United will need MANY pilots too over the next decade and IMO, they will continue to maintain their global legacy status at #2 behind Delta (out of 2 premium legacies). The other LCC's will catch AA pilot pay and working condition wise, but will only match their size if AA melts due to unforeseen industry circumstances or a merger occurs between 2 or more of the other LCC's. The widening and now unstoppable pilot shortage will soon mean pilots will be even firmer in the pilots seat on the leverage side of the supply/demand equation and thus will have many more opportunities to maximize the quality of their futures. These considerations are among many that shape my opinion that ALL aspiring pilots should do much more due diligence in not just the flying qualification aspect of their career path, but the strategic selection aspect as well. BOTH are equally important for pilots to focus on to achieve the greatest ROI for their sacrifices.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 07-17-2018 at 12:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    Like I said. Gimmick. They are just copying the Envoy pipeline program that has been in place for quite some time.
    You say this is a gimmick while also saying they are just "copying" the Envoy pipeline ?

    Well,..................just what do you think that makes Envoy's pipeline program ?

    Answer : A gimmick. (your conclusion as demonstrated above Q.E.D.)

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    Hmmm...very interesting...

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    From what I read in an article earlier, there was no mention whatsoever about the regionals being a stepping stone to mainline. If that isn’t part of this equation it could spell the ending phases of flow and CPP programs.
    Granted it’ll take a few years, but as usual somebody other than AAG is leading the way and thinking ahead.

    Que Da Spooge, Miami Marine Mammal, and the Flamboyant one with their rebuttal.

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    American maybe ahead on this but delta is going to wipe there azz with american

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirsnacksalot View Post
    From what I read in an article earlier, there was no mention whatsoever about the regionals being a stepping stone to mainline. If that isn’t part of this equation it could spell the ending phases of flow and CPP programs.
    Granted it’ll take a few years, but as usual somebody other than AAG is leading the way and thinking ahead.

    Que Da Spooge, Miami Marine Mammal, and the Flamboyant one with their rebuttal.
    No, just one avenue. But, a direct path to Delta in UNDER 4 years is possible for some. I think as the supply of pilots becomes more limited, they will become even more aggressive and AA’s cadet program will be joined by not only Delta, but United and others. But, this is GOOD for not only aspiring pilots in cadet situations with options, but more experienced pilots at various regionals, including Envoy. In just a few short years, competition will be fierce and Delta and United offer a lot. I also think the final stop airline’s rep will become a major player and that’s where I think AA has serious obstacles as the promised culture change with pilots occurred but not for the better and that inevitably will extract a price.

    Next year, once the inevitable battle between APA and AA pilots against management goes on display, the optics will get worse and that’s another major point. As long as AA pilots are still treated like they are bricks in management’s backpack, AA will have a disadvantage in attracting pilots compared to industry innovators and leaders like Delta. But, all this could evaporate quickly if the overdue cycle reversal in this industry arrives sooner rather then later.

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    All this awesomeness badassery makes me think of one thing and one thing only.
    https://youtu.be/ZTidn2dBYbY

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    I don't think that Delta is really that interested in getting people that are qualified on paper into their cockpits. I've done all the job fairs, adding some good volunteering I hear they like on my resume, stint as a CKA, over 9k total with 3k PIC, no accidents, incidents, great record at Envoy, update app on their site often and...nothing. Two strikes I have against me are one that I'm ex enlisted military and pieced together my degree over a 6 year period while working, and two, I'm a middle aged guy now.

    A few months ago I was on the employee bus to the parking lot and saw a mid twenties guy from the back in a black blazer. I assumed Expressjet and sat down across from him. Nope. He was Delta. After going through the above, I started a conversation and found out that he did Embry Riddle, instructed and then spent two years at Skywest before getting the call. I didn't ask his age or times but age was certainly mid twenties and from his history and assumed age, I presume his only PIC was from instructing. Oh well, flow number coming up in next 2 to 3 months so I guess that's going to have to be it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PREVEMB View Post
    I don't think that Delta is really that interested in getting people that are qualified on paper into their cockpits. I've done all the job fairs, adding some good volunteering I hear they like on my resume, stint as a CKA, over 9k total with 3k PIC, no accidents, incidents, great record at Envoy, update app on their site often and...nothing. Two strikes I have against me are one that I'm ex enlisted military and pieced together my degree over a 6 year period while working, and two, I'm a middle aged guy now.

    A few months ago I was on the employee bus to the parking lot and saw a mid twenties guy from the back in a black blazer. I assumed Expressjet and sat down across from him. Nope. He was Delta. After going through the above, I started a conversation and found out that he did Embry Riddle, instructed and then spent two years at Skywest before getting the call. I didn't ask his age or times but age was certainly mid twenties and from his history and assumed age, I presume his only PIC was from instructing. Oh well, flow number coming up in next 2 to 3 months so I guess that's going to have to be it.

    No kidding. It's pretty sad, isn't it. It feels like you're (we're) viewed by the Legacies as part of the lost decade that is plagued by years of stagnation, bankruptcy & merger beat-downs, contempt, pessimism, and distrust. We're deemed unwanted. We know too much about the industry to be a good little lap dog. We have too many hours in an RJ and are too old to train.

    It's funny how the hiring standards have changed over the past decade or so. In the early 2000's, right after 9/11, when I was coming up through the industry; the majors wanted the older, wiser, well experienced guy with several thousand hours, mostly 121 turbine PIC. Now they want the young bright eyed kid, that came AFTER the lost decade. In their eyes, they're more optimistic, trainable, motivated, and their age gives them more years of dedicated service. Plus, if they weren't around for BK, mergers, or contract beat-downs, then they're less likely to fight the company when the next round of contract negotiations roll around. Plus, I think Delta still requires the 4 year degree to have been completed in 4 years. Which makes no sense, since if it took 6 years, then that means that you had to work / raise family, ect. while earning the degree. I would thing that's honorable because it shows your resilience and ability to multitask. I have no idea why they wouldn't want an enlisted guy, unless you ("we", I'm also prior enlisted) don't fit into their good ole officers club. But who knows...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PREVEMB View Post
    I don't think that Delta is really that interested in getting people that are qualified on paper into their cockpits. I've done all the job fairs, adding some good volunteering I hear they like on my resume, stint as a CKA, over 9k total with 3k PIC, no accidents, incidents, great record at Envoy, update app on their site often and...nothing. Two strikes I have against me are one that I'm ex enlisted military and pieced together my degree over a 6 year period while working, and two, I'm a middle aged guy now.

    A few months ago I was on the employee bus to the parking lot and saw a mid twenties guy from the back in a black blazer. I assumed Expressjet and sat down across from him. Nope. He was Delta. After going through the above, I started a conversation and found out that he did Embry Riddle, instructed and then spent two years at Skywest before getting the call. I didn't ask his age or times but age was certainly mid twenties and from his history and assumed age, I presume his only PIC was from instructing. Oh well, flow number coming up in next 2 to 3 months so I guess that's going to have to be it.
    Delta still can be choosy now as they are looked upon as the pinnacle (no pun intended) of final stop employers for airline pilots. They know it. I think they are also angling a bit smarter then AA in that they are seeking pilots that will be around awhile and less prone to health care costs, thus the younger (and more cost-efficient) pilots. I also think they believe younger pilots from the regionals aren’t as disgruntled either, having not suffered for many years or even decades in sweatshop environments. AA’s present system on the other hand seems to be set up to become more top heavy with older pilots who simply by virtue of age won’t be around as long and will require more health care dollars. They are in effect, creating another future staffing (and expense) issue for themselves which Delta (and United) will likely avoid in the coming years. I think that may be one reason AA is so resistant to bring their pilot LTD provisions up to Delta’s or Spirit’s.

    So, that means for most of the older Envoy pilots who don’t plan to close out their careers at Envoy, the flow may be their best path, but again, most of these pilots aren’t going anywhere else anyway. Some do have other LCC options which may be a better risk then the bottom of AA especially if they can make captain much faster, which for older pilots is critical in the pay segment of the compensation equation, but the younger Envoy pilots (more recent hires) will have the best options unless they are gap-toothed, mouth breathers with multiple check-ride failures as Delta and United will need lots of pilots in the coming years. Most of the older Envoy pilots who will flow will be over in the next couple of years unless the cycle curve starts down before then. For these pilots though, they are especially vulnerable as they will be extremely low-seniority on a very large seniority list at a carrier with significantly more competitive and viability issues going forward then virtually all of their competitors who have room to expand and the lack of debt to finance further expansion. The A220 looks like it will be a game changer and Jet Blue has joined that parade (along with Delta). Look for more of AA’s fellow LCC’s to join in the future as well.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 07-18-2018 at 10:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Griff312 View Post
    No kidding. It's pretty sad, isn't it. It feels like you're (we're) viewed by the Legacies as part of the lost decade that is plagued by years of stagnation, bankruptcy & merger beat-downs, contempt, pessimism, and distrust. We're deemed unwanted. We know too much about the industry to be a good little lap dog. We have too many hours in an RJ and are too old to train.

    It's funny how the hiring standards have changed over the past decade or so. In the early 2000's, right after 9/11, when I was coming up through the industry; the majors wanted the older, wiser, well experienced guy with several thousand hours, mostly 121 turbine PIC. Now they want the young bright eyed kid, that came AFTER the lost decade. In their eyes, they're more optimistic, trainable, motivated, and their age gives them more years of dedicated service. Plus, if they weren't around for BK, mergers, or contract beat-downs, then they're less likely to fight the company when the next round of contract negotiations roll around. Plus, I think Delta still requires the 4 year degree to have been completed in 4 years. Which makes no sense, since if it took 6 years, then that means that you had to work / raise family, ect. while earning the degree. I would thing that's honorable because it shows your resilience and ability to multitask. I have no idea why they wouldn't want an enlisted guy, unless you ("we", I'm also prior enlisted) don't fit into their good ole officers club. But who knows...
    I know how you feel.

    But, it’s a perfect example of an industry that cycles and timing is everything and not really a personal thing although it can feel that way. That’s why it is SO CRITICAL that pilots continuously evaluate their options and associated risks. By doing that, you greatly improve your chances at being in a better position in the down cycle which always happens eventually. When you are young, have less financial burden (and possibly interpersonal burden with being single), THAT is as Jack Sparrow says, “the opportune moment”. Once older, your options decrease, but they still are there. Look at Cujo......it’s debateable whether he’s better of then at AA, but it sounds as though he’s definitely better off then at Envoy. As stated before, Jet Blue just invested in the A220 (like Delta) and that will be a game changer. It has long, thin, but very profitable route abilities that AA can not match and so will remain on the sidelines in that respect. Look for more of AA’s direct competition like Spirit and a Frontier to capitalize on those opportunities and that means new opportunities for even older pilots. I think AA has too much debt for any new aircraft financing and logistically couldn’t handle another fleet type now anyway as the retirement schedule is too heavy now to meet training needs, let alone more, so that should be factored in to those gambling on AA. AA is on the expansion sideline now and a lumbering, clumsy elephant whereas their competitors are still lean, light and ready for a fight and will be expanding and likely merging to become large competitors themselves. Interesting options still are there if you think outside the box, even for older pilots.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 07-18-2018 at 10:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    You say this is a gimmick while also saying they are just "copying" the Envoy pipeline ?

    Well,..................just what do you think that makes Envoy's pipeline program ?

    Answer : A gimmick. (your conclusion as demonstrated above Q.E.D.)

    Have your read the fine print? Number one, they did copy Envoy. Number two, it's a half assed attempt. There are absolutely no guarantees for this 42 month deal they are advertising. Nothing at all like what we've got here. So, go read the fine print and get back to me.

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    Lol- “they did copy envoy... ... ...there are absolutely no guarantees”. Exactly lol. Idiot

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