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Thread: Where will you be when the music stops?

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    You seeing stars beagle? Cause Check Six just cleaned your clock brah. Nothing surprising about your long winded response that amounted to nothing. Just proves what we all know.

    I agree with previous posts about the quality of the pipeliners. Great adds for Envoy. The only problem is we will only have em for 6 years.

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    Honestly dude it’s possible to jump the shark without trying. It happens to the best of us. Everyone knows whose full of it. It’s them not you but your like Britney Spears with a shaved head beating on your ex’s car window. Go away for awhile and come back later. Same thing for you flipper and dacuj. https://youtu.be/WvGopsM1G9g

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robsquatch View Post
    Honestly dude it’s possible to jump the shark without trying. It happens to the best of us. Everyone knows whose full of it. It’s them not you but your like Britney Spears with a shaved head beating on your ex’s car window. Go away for awhile and come back later. Same thing for you flipper and dacuj. https://youtu.be/WvGopsM1G9g
    Done.

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    Heard this place was "beagle free" now. I'm here for the party. Party on dudes!

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    Please. If you want fireworks go over to eaglelounge. I’m experiencing nirvana with the lack of posts here

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robsquatch View Post
    Please. If you want fireworks go over to eaglelounge. I’m experiencing nirvana with the lack of posts here
    Is Eaglelounge still a thing???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    I didn't say he was "wrong", I asked you are you sure if he's right ? On the surface (in a vacuum) his claims are technically right, but I think it's more important to determine if his equation equals the result he implies it does. He can hold up some cash and demonstrate $10 plus another $10 equals $20 and be correct, but is that the same as you being $20 richer ? That's all I'm saying and was asking you. As for the retirement issue you describe, yes, after 5 years of a raised age to 70, retirements start again, but does that equate to no lost value in the flow during the first 5 years ? If all the legacies get another retirement break of X years, it would produce few new slots at any carrier with little need or ability to expand like the legacies including AA. Some of the LCC's will expand in the future though, so growth and advancement there is more likely under such a scenario.

    I just think pilots need to be better investors in their careers instead of following their traditional tack of going long on assumptions and all too frequently getting the short end of the stick. That and listening to those claiming they have the investment of the future that is guaranteed to pay off big returns. That reminds me of Decaprio's character in The Wolf of Wall Street when he first sits down in the Penny Stock outfit after the big crash and proceeds (to the amazement of everyone there) to demonstrate mastery of the art of B.S.

    You DON'T want to be the chump on the other end of that phone.
    So, here’s a question...

    Do you carry any insurance? Health? Auto? Homeowners? Long-term care? Life?

    I’m going to go ahead and assume that you have paid at least a few insurance premiums in your life. I think you have this view of people coming to Envoy as being a bunch of idiots betting the farm on flow. I don’t find that to be the case at all after flying with many of them.

    Most seem to see the flow for what it is... a great seniority generator for the time being, and a decent insurance policy should they get stuck at the regionals for any number of reasons.

    A good friend of mine who I’ve known for years is flowing to AA this month. Great pilot, and a generally great guy to hang out with. He never got a mainline call, so he is choosing to exercise his right to flow per our contract. I see no harm in that. He is cashing in an insurance policy that was only needed if his other interview plans didn’t my work out.

    If other pilots want to “buy” that same insurance, why to they need you constantly trying to talk them out of it. Sure, point out a few nuggets of wisdom to those who seem a little too starry-eyed. But frankly, you do sound mostly like someone with an axe to grind about AA. You may be right, and Parker might kill the golden goose. But for the sake of 15,000+ pilots over at AA, as many here who have hoped for a shot at working there, why don’t you take it a bit easier than you tend to on here. There has to be more on your plate that constantly warning the rest of us about our impending doom. Enough with the condescending diatribes. You’re not that wise, and the rest of us aren’t that stupid.

    “BEWARE!!! Bad time are coming on the horizon!!! BEWARE!!!” We’ll, you don’t say! We never would have guessed that markets, the airline industry, and pretty much everything else in life) is cyclical without all of these wonderful posts you make around here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    So, here’s a question...

    Do you carry any insurance? Health? Auto? Homeowners? Long-term care? Life?
    Sure. But not all insurance policies carry the value many assume they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    I’m going to go ahead and assume that you have paid at least a few insurance premiums in your life. I think you have this view of people coming to Envoy as being a bunch of idiots betting the farm on flow. I don’t find that to be the case at all after flying with many of them.

    Most seem to see the flow for what it is... a great seniority generator for the time being, and a decent insurance policy should they get stuck at the regionals for any number of reasons.
    If that's the view you think I have then either A. you're not reading my posts or B. Reading them, but seeing what you want to see in them. I have no dispute with the potential viability of the flow (for now) as an "insurance policy", but simply highlight factors that might dilute its value. As long as pilots are willing to understand and accept that, that's all that's important, hence the term Caveat Emptor (Buyer Beware). All new-hires a bunch of idiots ? Not saying that either, but are you saying that the pilots filling entry-level positions at regionals are critically astute strategists and tacticians regarding industry history and thus will have a good handle on what is and is not good risk and decision making regarding that career ? If so, then history would prove you wrong. History demonstrates most of these pilots are simply chasing the best surface deal for the present be it pay, domicile, hoped for advancement and yes, even assumed "insurance policies" like flow-thru's.

    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    A good friend of mine who I’ve known for years is flowing to AA this month. Great pilot, and a generally great guy to hang out with. He never got a mainline call, so he is choosing to exercise his right to flow per our contract. I see no harm in that. He is cashing in an insurance policy that was only needed if his other interview plans didn’t my work out.
    Couldn't blame him a bit. He rolled the dice that his insurance policy would pay out should he still be at Envoy and it did. What was he going to do, stay at Envoy ? But neither life nor this industry occurs in a vacuum and those who have theoretical insurance policies like flows that can be altered at future points by agreement or otherwise don't necessarily pay out as one expects. The "29 debacle" being discussed is a perfect example and that's a relatively minor glitch. Should true turmoil in the world, industry or even just within AA occur, it could and likely would be much worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    If other pilots want to “buy” that same insurance, why to they need you constantly trying to talk them out of it. Sure, point out a few nuggets of wisdom to those who seem a little too starry-eyed. But frankly, you do sound mostly like someone with an axe to grind about AA. You may be right, and Parker might kill the golden goose. But for the sake of 15,000+ pilots over at AA, as many here who have hoped for a shot at working there, why don’t you take it a bit easier than you tend to on here. There has to be more on your plate that constantly warning the rest of us about our impending doom. Enough with the condescending diatribes. You’re not that wise, and the rest of us aren’t that stupid.
    I hate to say it, but you recruiters (yes, you clearly talk like another recruiter just using a less...................um, shall we say "confrontational" approach) do not speak for the group (as in the rest of "us"). As you can see during my vacation over the last week, others with unfortunately negative info have brought that up for informational purposes without me. It seems the only people (with an exception or two) who truly feel my "diatribes" as you say are offensive are a core of recruiters such as yourself who prefer only good news or positive positions be discussed and the rest be swept under the rug. But you see, that is one of the core problems of and for younger, newer pilots in this industry and why they came to the old Eagle with promises of 5 year flows and like your friend are flowing years after that or why they hopscotch to other regionals because it looked good at the time only to get the shaft shortly thereafter. History tends to repeat itself especially when the next group of participants disregard history and due diligence. If you were truly neutral as you hope to portray, you'd be equally critical of the inflations, embellishments and even outright misrepresentations made in the opposite side of the "flow-thru" argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    “BEWARE!!! Bad time are coming on the horizon!!! BEWARE!!!” We’ll, you don’t say! We never would have guessed that markets, the airline industry, and pretty much everything else in life) is cyclical without all of these wonderful posts you make around here.
    You make an excellent overall point. This industry IS indeed cyclical regardless of whether I post or not and being cyclical, the question is, is it at a high-point or a low point now ? I argue it's at a VERY high point now. In cycles, where do high points usually go ? Are there multiple indicators globally, domestically and regarding AA itself that might lead one to concern ? I argue, most definitely. You seem to fall classically into the Hot Hand Fallacy and that's your prerogative, but other opinions exist and rightfully are valid to be considered. Besides, one can only wonder what deals the MEC will cook up next that sounded good in theory, but in practice prove to be worth little or nothing when manipulated by outside forces. In fact, I could ask what some of these savvy new-hires will do should the flow slow more and a new consideration for subverting seniority to keep the then MEC's or THEIR flow going negatively impact them like backroom cadet deals ? Sooner or later, the subversion of the seniority system hurts virtually every pilot.

    Come on six, take a look around beyond your recruiting cube and face the reality of the outside world. The insurance policy you allude to being bulletproof is no such thing and filled with holes allowing the issuer to modify or even eliminate it at a future point. Insurance policies aren't a bad thing (and neither is the flow itself) as long as you don't depend solely or too heavily on them and stop thinking and the fact is in the interim there MIGHT be some better options for SOME Envoy pilots outside of assuming their policy will pay off when it is assumed to.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 07-11-2018 at 01:08 PM.

  9. #89
    Registered User Dacuj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    So, here’s a question...

    Do you carry any insurance? Health? Auto? Homeowners? Long-term care? Life?

    I’m going to go ahead and assume that you have paid at least a few insurance premiums in your life. I think you have this view of people coming to Envoy as being a bunch of idiots betting the farm on flow. I don’t find that to be the case at all after flying with many of them.

    Most seem to see the flow for what it is... a great seniority generator for the time being, and a decent insurance policy should they get stuck at the regionals for any number of reasons.

    A good friend of mine who I’ve known for years is flowing to AA this month. Great pilot, and a generally great guy to hang out with. He never got a mainline call, so he is choosing to exercise his right to flow per our contract. I see no harm in that. He is cashing in an insurance policy that was only needed if his other interview plans didn’t my work out.

    If other pilots want to “buy” that same insurance, why to they need you constantly trying to talk them out of it. Sure, point out a few nuggets of wisdom to those who seem a little too starry-eyed. But frankly, you do sound mostly like someone with an axe to grind about AA. You may be right, and Parker might kill the golden goose. But for the sake of 15,000+ pilots over at AA, as many here who have hoped for a shot at working there, why don’t you take it a bit easier than you tend to on here. There has to be more on your plate that constantly warning the rest of us about our impending doom. Enough with the condescending diatribes. You’re not that wise, and the rest of us aren’t that stupid.

    “BEWARE!!! Bad time are coming on the horizon!!! BEWARE!!!” We’ll, you don’t say! We never would have guessed that markets, the airline industry, and pretty much everything else in life) is cyclical without all of these wonderful posts you make around here.
    Excellent points here and very well written. As we both know, it gets overly tiresome defending the flow from these 10%ers here. All the points you made are absolutely valid and spot on. I fully expect a "Yoda-esque" response from the old wise one that refutes every single solid point you made. There is a reason candidates are flocking to Envoy and after a couple of years describing it in detail here, not a single one of these boneheaded 10%ers has moved an inch. Just proof that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Excellent points here and very well written. As we both know, it gets overly tiresome defending the flow from these 10%ers here. All the points you made are absolutely valid and spot on. I fully expect a "Yoda-esque" response from the old wise one that refutes every single solid point you made. There is a reason candidates are flocking to Envoy and after a couple of years describing it in detail here, not a single one of these boneheaded 10%ers has moved an inch. Just proof that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
    You lost your bifocals.

    My "Yoda-esque" response occurred before you posted this. You must be scaring the bejesus out of your Captains if you are demonstrating such a profound lack of awareness on the Flight Deck like you are in this example. "Flocking"...........I like that term regarding those who come to Envoy assuming X or Y. Just like a group of birds who do something just because of what one bird does. Flipper should be along soon once he high-fives his buddy _six over the cubicle wall.

    Curious again, but have you come up with a short-list of suggestions to hose over the AA line pilots yet ? It's the way to get ahead, yes ?
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 07-11-2018 at 01:15 PM.

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    Only 13 new hires in the next class........Looks like the flow is causing them to flock to envoy.

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    Thanks a lot check six

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robsquatch View Post
    Thanks a lot check six
    Exactly. Breath of fresh air when the truth comes to light. The recruiting staff is the backbone of the Envoy pilot list and has the most up to date and current info out there.

    Once again "you know who" can't help himself and bends over backward to cast yet more negative light in Envoy's direction. News flash. This ain't your grandaddys American Eagle. Its Envoy now and far, far superior to anything the "old" Eagle could ever offer. One example, the E175. A new hire at the "old" American Eagle was likely
    to get either the ATR or the Saab. Both hot and nasty relics. Now, new hires far more qualified than in those years start their AA career on the mainline 175. That's just for starters the night and day positive improvements Envoy has seen over the past 4 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Exactly. Breath of fresh air when the truth comes to light. The recruiting staff is the backbone of the Envoy pilot list and has the most up to date and current info out there.

    Once again "you know who" can't help himself and bends over backward to cast yet more negative light in Envoy's direction. News flash. This ain't your grandaddys American Eagle. Its Envoy now and far, far superior to anything the "old" Eagle could ever offer. One example, the E175. A new hire at the "old" American Eagle was likely
    to get either the ATR or the Saab. Both hot and nasty relics. Now, new hires far more qualified than in those years start their AA career on the mainline 175. That's just for starters the night and day positive improvements Envoy has seen over the past 4 years.
    I don't think that's what he meant, which would mean you're incredibly obtuse.

    What he meant was that he apparently sees this forum without me as "Nirvana". Well, I've jumped sharks and banged my shaved head against the window disputing your Pollyanna philosophies and was going to take a few more weeks off, but I was asked a question............well, several. I answered and now the usual cadre is upset at the results of their own making. There IS good news though ! A simple solution would be for the recruiting cadre (and Rob or others so inclined) to simply "ignore" me and *poof*......................Nirvana is back.

    Of course, we all know simply ignoring me is NOT the goal, but censorship and silence of dissent by controlling what others see, hear and thus think is......and so, as FlaminDacuj says........Party on dudes !

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    I have no problem with free and open dialogue here. We can debate the merits of Envoy every day. I feel sure that with 99 persuasive arguments in favor of Envoy I can convert someone with an actual open mind. A few here though are nothing but slimy salesmen trying to sell a lie. Like a car salesman hiding the fact the engine is about to go kaput, there are a few here who thrive on trying to sell negativity day in and day out. They are trying to sell a house of cards because it doesn't exist! Outdated old ways of thinking and lies are put forth that cover the truth regularly. Its tough being a defender of the truth and freedom daily but its what I and others will keep having to come here to the trenches and fight.

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    Outdated, well how outdated is a screw job and appropriate outdated response.
    What is your view and response to the above with your openness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    I have no problem with free and open dialogue here. We can debate the merits of Envoy every day. I feel sure that with 99 persuasive arguments in favor of Envoy I can convert someone with an actual open mind. A few here though are nothing but slimy salesmen trying to sell a lie. Like a car salesman hiding the fact the engine is about to go kaput, there are a few here who thrive on trying to sell negativity day in and day out. They are trying to sell a house of cards because it doesn't exist! Outdated old ways of thinking and lies are put forth that cover the truth regularly. Its tough being a defender of the truth and freedom daily but its what I and others will keep having to come here to the trenches and fight.
    Unreal, yet not surprising.

    NOW you’re attempting to feign legitimacy considering your hideous record of repeated vile verbal abuse and virtually every violation possible of both this forums rules and your own companies social media policy ? You've demanded others vacate this forum because they don’t work at Envoy, yet you get to stay ? You’ve now proclaimed yourself the “defender of the truth” with your easily quantifiable record of willful misrepresentation ? You now claim OTHERS are salesman considering you just admitted your goal is “converting” others ? Heck, I’ve been saying that all along about you, but it’s good you finally admit it. I don’t seek to convert anyone because I know virtually no one is “converted” by pilot forum opinions, mine included.

    I have now officially heard it all. Are Rudy and Kellyanne your new P.R. advisors ?
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 07-11-2018 at 11:52 PM.

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    Lets go back and discuss the ridiculous title of this thread. Where will you be when the music stop? The music isn't stopping in case anyone here hasn't figured it out. With THOUSANDS of retirements at AA and the other legacies over the next decade, the band will be in triple overtime and will have barely scratched the surface.

    Fortunately Envoy took a look at the crystal ball and acted decisively partnering with UND, US Aviation and others to attract the highly qualified talent they had in their institutions. I can personally attest to the quality of these pipeline instructors. Fortunately, this gives Envoy big numbers as we need them. Plus, we don't sacrifice quality by just hiring any Tom, Dick or Harry off the street like other lesser carriers.

    The E175 fleet is growing and this is the core of the Envoy fleet. Naturally, everyone wants the 175 and the new seniority assignment process helps alleviate concerns on the pipeline program side.

    Envoy is well positioned for 3000 plus pilots and to keep growing. These are some of the reasons the music isn't stopping and the flow is an absolute over the next 15 years. If you want to be an AA pilot, Envoy is your only choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post

    Envoy is well positioned for 3000 plus pilots and to keep growing. These are some of the reasons the music isn't stopping and the flow is an absolute over the next 15 years. If you want to be an AA pilot, Envoy is your only choice.
    So why is PSA and PDT flowing guys hired after our flows? Looks like Envoy is/should be your last choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiz5422 View Post
    So why is PSA and PDT flowing guys hired after our flows? Looks like Envoy is/should be your last choice.
    I am by no means a cheerleader of any sorts, but to touch on that point... When PSA and PDT got the flow, they were both around 300 pilots or less. (Maybe between 300 and 500 at PSA). Most of those pilots had been there a long time. After thier new respective contracts and flow agreement, they pretty much doubled in size, but still about half the amount of pilots we have now. Those flowing from PSA right now, were there pre-flow agreement. And while it is true that current flows have been on thier respective properties less time than our flows have, current hires at PSA & PDT are projected to flow in 10+ years. While ours is 'touted' to drop to 6. (We'll see if this actually ever manifest). The big difference is that psa & pdt flows a set number a month, as long as AA is hiring. They only send 6 to 8 / month, supposedly. While ours is, well.... SUPPOSED to be 50% / month, meterable to 29. PSA and PDT monthly flowthrough only goes up as total number of pilots on property increase, which thiers are not.

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