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Thread: Where will you be when the music stops?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    Somebody gets it....
    I have to question how this pilot group could become any more docile.

    It could be argued the MEC has hijacked this pilot group (which let’s face it, when did it become acceptable to sell out the concept of seniority for ANY reason, let alone to assist management in solving their own chosen problems ?). While I agree with such an argument, that happens because a pilot GROUP allows it by standing idly by, instead of being active stewards of their own futures.

    If Envoy pilots think they are leaving that dysfunctionality behind upon flow to AA, they will be sorely disappointed. APA functions very similarly. I was going to say they have at least not sold out the concept of seniority (the foundational bedrock of this profession on which everything else is anchored), but that would not be true. The SLI with US Airways was a perfect example and any junior LAA pilot who understands what happened there can attest to that. The lesson is, that under the right circumstances pilot seniority can by circumvented by force, or by agreement to avoid a worse result then force. Fragmentation of a carrier like Pan Am for example can show what can happen under those circumstances.

    One thing is for sure and that in sad, unfortunate situations, the interests of the senior usually prevail over the junior. There IS one exception where more junior pilots interests have prevailed over that of more senior pilots and it had nothing to do with “sad, unfortunate situations”, but willing horse trading that knowingly left senior pilots holding the bag for maximizing the interests of those more junior. That exception ?

    Envoy Airlines, where junior pilots were awarded rights more senior pilots do not have. The Cadet program proves it and the last backroom deal between management and the MEC proves it giving benefits to more junior flow thru’s while completely ignoring the interests of non-flow thru’s which are uniformly all senior.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 07-02-2018 at 09:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Envoy Airlines, where junior pilots were awarded rights more senior pilots do not have. The Cadet program proves it and the last backroom deal between management and the MEC proves it giving benefits to more junior flow thru’s while completely ignoring the interests of non-flow thru’s which are uniformly all senior.
    How exactly does the Cadet program circumvent seniority?

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    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    How exactly does the Cadet program circumvent seniority?
    Do cadets get to pick their aircraft (and thus base assignments) based on traditional class seniority (age) and are ranked with everyone else in class solely by that metric or do they get special consideration by being in the cadet program ? I understand the younger cadets get first dibs on the “crown jewel” over older new-hires who would be more senior and thus would have that option if traditional seniority provisions were in place. Do non-cadet new-hires get travel and other benefits (health care ?) prior to being awarded system seniority like cadets supposedly do and if so, why is this acceptable to the MEC ?

    If I’m incorrect, perhaps you or others could educate me on this situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    How exactly does the Cadet program circumvent seniority?
    I’m with check six on this. I fail to see how the cadet program bypasses seniority. Aircraft selection? Really? We are getting super qualified pipeline guys already that follow this logic. You have to give them some benefit. Now the ultimate benefit is their 6 year ticket to AA. However, to keep these guys coming there has to be some type of pot sweetener in addition. Still doesn’t cancel seniority.

    As as a side note. Binge watched the old Hawaii Five O on METV this past weekend. Seemed like every commercial break was for Medicare, Metamucil, First Alert and hearing aids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    I’m with check six on this. I fail to see how the cadet program bypasses seniority. Aircraft selection? Really? We are getting super qualified pipeline guys already that follow this logic. You have to give them some benefit. Now the ultimate benefit is their 6 year ticket to AA. However, to keep these guys coming there has to be some type of pot sweetener in addition. Still doesn’t cancel seniority.
    Don’t look now, but you’re not disputing my assertion, more like confirming it. In fact, you (not surprisingly) rationalize it and then spin that (predictably) into a flow sales pitch. In theory, the flow should have nothing to do with the core issue of the Envoy MEC abrogating the most sacred concept in this former profession (now just a job due to actions like this), but actually it does as that is the primary reason they gave away seniority, i.e., to get faster flow for themselves by “making a deal”. The seniority issue has nothing to do with cadets qualifications as all pilots are equally qualified on first day of indoc, at least in theory. Why would they need “some benefit” ? Answer: Because without such seniority hopping carrots, they might not come to Envoy.

    Hopefully someone more grounded can do a better job of disputing this as you have once again failed miserably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    As as a side note. Binge watched the old Hawaii Five O on METV this past weekend. Seemed like every commercial break was for Medicare, Metamucil, First Alert and hearing aids.
    What a coincidence. I watched a string of episodes of my favorite show from the 70’s (The Rockford Files) the other day and it was loaded with commercials for Xanax, Zoloft, Topamax and other psychotropic medications. As a side note to this, I for some reason can’t help reiterate that alcohol (especially consumed excessively) is incompatable with such medications.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 07-03-2018 at 07:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    I’m with check six on this. I fail to see how the cadet program bypasses seniority. Aircraft selection? Really? We are getting super qualified pipeline guys already that follow this logic. You have to give them some benefit. Now the ultimate benefit is their 6 year ticket to AA. However, to keep these guys coming there has to be some type of pot sweetener in addition. Still doesn’t cancel seniority.

    As as a side note. Binge watched the old Hawaii Five O on METV this past weekend. Seemed like every commercial break was for Medicare, Metamucil, First Alert and hearing aids.
    Oh yes, let's once again help the pilots who are not on property over those 2500 that are on property. We have to give them SOME benefit? Don't they already have insurance through AAG? Don't they already have travel privileges on AAG? Don't they get their pick of equipment in training? All while us old guys continue to get $hit on. No bonuses, flowing slower than PSA and Piedmont, coach and counseling for sneezing the wrong way, constantly incorrect pay checks. But my God let's help the 18 year CFIs so they can flow in 10 years (ooops I mean 6).

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglepilot View Post
    Oh yes, let's once again help the pilots who are not on property over those 2500 that are on property. We have to give them SOME benefit? Don't they already have insurance through AAG? Don't they already have travel privileges on AAG? Don't they get their pick of equipment in training? All while us old guys continue to get $hit on. No bonuses, flowing slower than PSA and Piedmont, coach and counseling for sneezing the wrong way, constantly incorrect pay checks. But my God let's help the 18 year CFIs so they can flow in 10 years (ooops I mean 6).
    If you received a Coach and Counsel, then clearly you did SOMETHING. So don't try to blame someone not even on property for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    If you received a Coach and Counsel, then clearly you did SOMETHING. So don't try to blame someone not even on property for it.
    I have not received one but many have so now they can't flow. Also, way to go to deflect from the main point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    If you received a Coach and Counsel, then clearly you did SOMETHING. So don't try to blame someone not even on property for it.
    Like the 2 people who got coach and counseling for posting FACTS and debuking lies that the recruitment page had on Facebook?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    If you received a Coach and Counsel, then clearly you did SOMETHING. So don't try to blame someone not even on property for it.
    I must again ask why someone not on Envoy property is commenting on this subject, most especially one who attacked others presence here for that very reason. For some unexplained reason, your statement above resulted in my thoughts that if a pilot fails a check ride, in theory they must have done SOMETHING, but if a pilot has a history of MULTIPLE failed Check rides, he is in the wrong business. I’ve heard it said that for some reason, such pilots seem to excel at sales.

    Anyway, it sure is interesting the things that one ponders sipping tea in the garden here at Shady Acres when on TalkAirline.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 07-03-2018 at 07:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglepilot View Post
    Like the 2 people who got coach and counseling for posting FACTS and debuking lies that the recruitment page had on Facebook?
    Let me clear something up for you. If recruitment posted something, it was and isn't a LIE. My guess would be that a couple of forum loudmouths went a little too far and thus the result you speak of happened. I don't know as I am not familiar. But supporting your recruiting department would and should be in your interest. Try being positive for a change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Do cadets get to pick their aircraft (and thus base assignments) based on traditional class seniority (age) and are ranked with everyone else in class solely by that metric or do they get special consideration by being in the cadet program ? I understand the younger cadets get first dibs on the “crown jewel” over older new-hires who would be more senior and thus would have that option if traditional seniority provisions were in place. Do non-cadet new-hires get travel and other benefits (health care ?) prior to being awarded system seniority like cadets supposedly do and if so, why is this acceptable to the MEC ?

    If I’m incorrect, perhaps you or others could educate me on this situation.
    Well, a couple of things...

    Cadets are generally Envoy employees, and therefore have the same rights, privileges, and benefits (including travel) afforded to any employee. Their company seniority starts on the day they are hired into that position. Asking why they get travel and healthcare benefits is like asking why staff assistants working at EHQ get employment benefits. Cadets are non-unionized employees who work for the company, and are not governed under the pilot contract.

    Now, regarding seniority awarded to new-hire pilots, that is governed by the contract. ALPA and the Company are welcome to award seniority however they wish. Tradition is not a factor in how this is accomplished. SkyWest used to award seniority based on SSN, Eagle used age, etc. It appears that Envoy is now using Employment/Experience as a factor. No new hire has a “right” to any particular seniority. Why should age trump any other metric for determining seniority? That’s merely one option for ranking people in a class. Why shouldn’t experience determine seniority? That would probably be a better method.

    Cadets are company employees, and may have been for up to a couple of years, and their service to the Envoy is being assigned a value by ALPA and the Company. This elevated their priority in class and on the master seniority list. I have no issue with that.

    Pilots with U.S.-based air carrier experience are also getting a boost due to their valuable experience (which also generally translates into being a better bet to pass training). Everyone else falls into the standard street hire box, but again...what metric would give anyone in this third tier a RIGHT to higher seniority? The answer is that nothing gives them a right. Just because age was the Golden rule before doesn’t mean that it is required to be so going forward. If ALPA and he Company see a better option that attracts the type of pilots being sought to create a safe and successful pilot group, then they have the ability to modify the new-hire seniority assignment process to reflect those needs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglepilot View Post
    Like the 2 people who got coach and counseling for posting FACTS and debuking lies that the recruitment page had on Facebook?
    It would be prudent to remember that, when dealing with projections, “facts” are relative. Each side is using assumptions to create their respective facts. Only passage of time will tell who is right. For example, everyone (including me) called BS on Charlie Bucket’s upgrade. However, that ended up working out slightly better than the Company even projected. Other items, like those who were promised that they would flow in 2 years and ended up flowing after 16+ years obviously saw the downside of unforeseen circumstances affecting the accuracy of a projection. You see LIES because you want to (because you disagree with the projection. You see FACTS because you want to (because you agree with your own pile of data).

    Something going into the record of a pilot due to posts on the Envoy FB page likely means they violated some piece of the social media policy. I just avoid the official social pages all together so there’s no risk of my blood boiling causing me to post something that may violate any company policies. People need to be smart about how they react online. Forums are one thing...vent away. But, interactions with the company should be handled appropriately and per all company policies.
    Last edited by check_six; 07-03-2018 at 11:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    Well, a couple of things...

    Cadets are generally Envoy employees, and therefore have the same rights, privileges, and benefits (including travel) afforded to any employee. Their company seniority starts on the day they are hired into that position. Asking why they get travel and healthcare benefits is like asking why staff assistants working at EHQ get employment benefits. Cadets are non-unionized employees who work for the company, and are not governed under the pilot contract.
    "Generally" Envoy employees ? Please. They are students at University flight schools and this MEC stands mute when college students not contributing a single dollar to Envoy get the "same rights, privileges and benefits" (stunningly including travel) to those who do ? The fact they are pilots who are non-union makes it even worse. Please..............I understand many fall for this, but that's because they've had their expectations dumbed down to a level where they now just look the other way. Sorry, but I don't fit into that mold..............not anymore. Nice dance though.

    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    Now, regarding seniority awarded to new-hire pilots, that is governed by the contract. ALPA and the Company are welcome to award seniority however they wish. Tradition is not a factor in how this is accomplished. SkyWest used to award seniority based on SSN, Eagle used age, etc. It appears that Envoy is now using Employment/Experience as a factor. No new hire has a “right” to any particular seniority. Why should age trump any other metric for determining seniority? That’s merely one option for ranking people in a class. Why shouldn’t experience determine seniority? That would probably be a better method.
    Wow...........just wow. Did you read what you just wrote ? First you validate the awarding of benefits to non-union, non-Envoy pilots as something perfectly acceptable from the standpoint of the interests of supposedly unionized pilots and now validate THAT as though they are active pilots governed by the Envoy CBA when they are nowhere to be found listed in such contract. You are correct in that ALPA and the company can award seniority any way they wish, but again it seems that you aren't comprehending your convoluted rebuttal and that is MY WHOLE POINT. ALPA has chosen to invent a new seniority component (actually alloed it to be invented for them) that unlike your examples which ALL involve ACTIVE new-hires IN CLASS, Envoy's MEC is now awarding seniority rights to NON ENVOY PILOTS who are NOT ACTIVE ENVOY PILOTS. What's next, who comes to class with the largest $$$ offering to the company ?

    Again..............................WOW............ ............JUST WOW.

    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    Cadets are company employees, and may have been for up to a couple of years, and their service to the Envoy is being assigned a value by ALPA and the Company. This elevated their priority in class and on the master seniority list. I have no issue with that.
    Once again, you prove my whole point. YOU don't have a problem with that ? I wonder how the other pilots in those classes feel knowing they've come to the only unionized (again, theoretically) airline in the history of this industry whose "union" has sunk to the point of awarding seniority and benefits to pilots NOT represented by their own collective bargaining agreement ?! At least with Letter 3 both affected pilot groups got something tangible for that. Now, it's just given away and to non-union college students for essentially nothing tangible in return. How do tenured pilots feel who are locked out of those options by this and other anti-seniority provisions in play at Envoy ? I have little doubt you are the extreme minority on this, my friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    Pilots with U.S.-based air carrier experience are also getting a boost due to their valuable experience (which also generally translates into being a better bet to pass training). Everyone else falls into the standard street hire box, but again...what metric would give anyone in this third tier a RIGHT to higher seniority? The answer is that nothing gives them a right. Just because age was the Golden rule before doesn’t mean that it is required to be so going forward. If ALPA and he Company see a better option that attracts the type of pilots being sought to create a safe and successful pilot group, then they have the ability to modify the new-hire seniority assignment process to reflect those needs.
    An EXECLLENT description of a unionized pilot group (in theory) who has lost itself to such a degree, it has allowed their own management to reinvent the entire concept of seniority and proof is there that it is a concept NOT for the benefit of either the pilot group or collective bargaining. I couldn't have said it better myself. In effect, they are now relegated to observers of their own seniority system with management controlling that aspect of the Envoy CBA. College student trainees now getting Envoy seniority rights when not even represented by that Association, without vote or approval of the pilot group as a whole, nor even existing on the seniority list when they get it ? Tenured pilots "locked out" of exercising seniority UNLESS it works in the favor of managements interests ? I mean.............. I rest my case. What more can be said ?

    There it is in black and white my poor friends. If you had any doubts as to just how far off the reservation this pilot groups has gone, this is the obvious blueprint. Actually, this entire situation can be summed up in a FAR more succinct and correct observation. That observation is, it's EXACTLY what occurs at NON-UNION CARRIERS. For all intents and purposes now, Envoy Airlines IS a non-union carrier insofar as its pilots are concerned. Is it no wonder the primary point of coming to Envoy is to use it to get out ASAP ?

    What a tragedy.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 07-03-2018 at 12:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    It would be prudent to remember that, when dealing with projections, “facts” are relative. Each side is using assumptions to create their respective facts. Only passage of time will tell who is right. For example, everyone (including me) called BS on Charlie Bucket’s upgrade. However, that ended up working out slightly better than the Company even projected. Other items, like those who were promised that they would flow in 2 years and ended up flowing after 16+ years obviously saw the downside of unforeseen circumstances affecting the accuracy of a projection. You see LIES because you want to (because you disagree with the projection. You see FACTS because you want to (because you agree with your own pile of data).

    Something going into the record of a pilot due to posts on the Envoy FB page likely means they violated some piece of the social media policy. I just avoid the official social pages all together so there’s no risk of my blood boiling causing me to post something that may violate any company policies. People need to be smart about how they react online. Forums are one thing...vent away. But, interactions with the company should be handled appropriately and per all company policies.
    My opinions are based on assumptions, I agree. But the difference is what quantifiable data is one using to support one's assumptions ? I listed the red flags repeatedly and much of it is validated by others in the industry. The concerns about AA's future are real. The past also includes plenty of data to lead to a more realistic assumptive model then ignoring present outside data and past conduct to predict the future with better odds. The only opposing response from the usual suspect are insults, foul language devoid of anything concrete, but blind hope.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 07-03-2018 at 12:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Let me clear something up for you. If recruitment posted something, it was and isn't a LIE. My guess would be that a couple of forum loudmouths went a little too far and thus the result you speak of happened. I don't know as I am not familiar. But supporting your recruiting department would and should be in your interest. Try being positive for a change.
    Yea guys, even if you don’t think it’s true you want to do what’s best for you. Not some human being that has a family to make plans for that isn’t even here yet. Sell him/her down the river on an overly optimistic projection and flow faster. Ends justify the means. Just like the water carriers. Nuff said

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    "Generally" Envoy employees ? Please. They are students at University flight schools and this MEC stands mute when college students not contributing a single dollar to Envoy get the "same rights, privileges and benefits" (stunningly including travel) to those who do ? The fact they are pilots who are non-union makes it even worse. Please..............I understand many fall for this, but that's because they've had their expectations dumbed down to a level where they now just look the other way. Sorry, but I don't fit into that mold..............not anymore. Nice dance though.

    Yes..."generally" due to the fact that not all Cadets are eligible for employment. However, those that are employees are 100% as entitled to benefits the same as any other employee at Envoy. Or, are you advocating that some employees at Envoy deserve benefits and some do not? Shall we stop providing medical and travel benefits to the finance or accounting departments? How about the facilities folks?

    Also, these are not pilots in the sense that they cannot move Envoy metal. You are definitely confusing that issue. They CAN'T be pilots for Envoy because they do not even meet the qualifications. They are a separate group of employees who provide contract instructional services to flight schools. I suppose they are welcome to unionize if that would make you feel better, but it would have the same effect on the pilot group as if all of the staff assistants in the company decided to get together an form a union...none. I might accept your argument if they could provide a competing bid to move envoy metal.


    Wow...........just wow. Did you read what you just wrote ? First you validate the awarding of benefits to non-union, non-Envoy pilots as something perfectly acceptable from the standpoint of the interests of supposedly unionized pilots and now validate THAT as though they are active pilots governed by the Envoy CBA when they are nowhere to be found listed in such contract. You are correct in that ALPA and the company can award seniority any way they wish, but again it seems that you aren't comprehending your convoluted rebuttal and that is MY WHOLE POINT. ALPA has chosen to invent a new seniority component (actually alloed it to be invented for them) that unlike your examples which ALL involve ACTIVE new-hires IN CLASS, Envoy's MEC is now awarding seniority rights to NON ENVOY PILOTS who are NOT ACTIVE ENVOY PILOTS. What's next, who comes to class with the largest $$$ offering to the company ?

    Again..............................WOW............ ............JUST WOW.

    I think you're getting confused. ALPA doesn't give Cadets anything in terms of seniority before they are placed in class. Like EVERY OTHER ENVOY EMPLOYEE, they do have a company seniority date due to the fact they are employees for the purposes of vacation accrual, vesting, 65-point retirement travel accrual, etc. However, they are not added to the pilot seniority list until they start class.

    So, are you saying that there is a difference between valuing age vs. valuing experience or time on property?
    For example, I'm going to rephrase what you wrote to fit the old model of awarding seniority in class:

    "Envoy's MEC used to award seniority rights to NON ENVOY PILOTS who are NOT ACTIVE ENVOY PILOTS based solely on the date they were born."

    There needs to be a method for determining seniority order on the first day of class. Each person is placed based on a system of metrics. The only metric used to be age. Now, 121 experience and Cadet employment tenure are factored in to the equation. Why was age fair, and the new system isn't? The only people I saw getting pissed when the system changed was older pilots in class who used to have the advantage because they were born on an earlier date. Frankly, I would rather have seniority assigned based on benefit to the company and it's employees rather than a variable that can't be controlled by the applicants. I actually wish that time in service of AAG was considered for seniority in class at AA. Why should a pilot who has done nothing to produce income for AAG be placed above me in seniority for class selection when my family has made sacrifices directly contributing to AAG's bottom line for years?


    Once again, you prove my whole point. YOU don't have a problem with that ? I wonder how the other pilots in those classes feel knowing they've come to the only unionized (again, theoretically) airline in the history of this industry whose "union" has sunk to the point of awarding seniority and benefits to pilots NOT represented by their own collective bargaining agreement ?! At least with Letter 3 both affected pilot groups got something tangible for that. Now, it's just given away and to non-union college students for essentially nothing tangible in return. How do tenured pilots feel who are locked out of those options by this and other anti-seniority provisions in play at Envoy ? I have little doubt you are the extreme minority on this, my friend.

    ALPA doesn't give anything to Cadets. Sorry to say, but you are clearly not familiar in the least with how this program works (much like you've been confused on the finer points of flow in the past...a lot has changed since your day). Tenured pilots??? What AAG/Envoy tenure has been accrued by anyone in a new hire class??? If you're talking about Cadets getting 175 spots in class, well that's the way it has always worked for people at the top of the new hire class seniority list. Anyone with tenure at Envoy can't bed jet-to-jet anyways, so the only people they could be disappointing are older pilots who would have chosen those positions under the old age based system. And, don't kid yourself about old pilots being experienced/tenured in aviation. Half of the people I fly with spent years as teachers, cops, lawyers (yup...had one of those), small business people, etc. Many have little to no tenure in airline aviation...certainly no more than the Cadets.

    An EXECLLENT description of a unionized pilot group (in theory) who has lost itself to such a degree, it has allowed their own management to reinvent the entire concept of seniority and proof is there that it is a concept NOT for the benefit of either the pilot group or collective bargaining. I couldn't have said it better myself. In effect, they are now relegated to observers of their own seniority system with management controlling that aspect of the Envoy CBA. College student trainees now getting Envoy seniority rights when not even represented by that Association, without vote or approval of the pilot group as a whole, nor even existing on the seniority list when they get it ? Tenured pilots "locked out" of exercising seniority UNLESS it works in the favor of managements interests ? I mean.............. I rest my case. What more can be said ?

    There it is in black and white my poor friends. If you had any doubts as to just how far off the reservation this pilot groups has gone, this is the obvious blueprint. Actually, this entire situation can be summed up in a FAR more succinct and correct observation. That observation is, it's EXACTLY what occurs at NON-UNION CARRIERS. For all intents and purposes now, Envoy Airlines IS a non-union carrier insofar as its pilots are concerned. Is it no wonder the primary point of coming to Envoy is to use it to get out ASAP ?

    What a tragedy.
    The only tragedy, I'm afraid, is your complete misunderstanding of my previous post, and your lack of knowledge regarding the workings of the Cadet program (or much of anything else going on around here).

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    Don't let this distract you from the solid fact that Red Lobsters Ultimate Feast price went up $4 and the portions got noticeably smaller and you only get 4 biscuits instead of 5 for a table of 2!!! Not fooling me!!

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    Touché Griff!

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    First of all I want to commend check_six on his brilliant rebuttal to beagle. I wholeheartedly 100% concur with all of his arguments and applaud his brilliantly worded response.

    It cannot be overstated the tremendous value the pipeline guys have to Envoy, and in the future, the cadets as well. The pipeline guys are all super motivated and highly qualified and are some of the most valuable additions Envoy has seen in its history. It is a fact that they were getting the shaft in Indoc prior to the new way of calculating seniority on day one. Just because a guy is old should not, and now, fortunately does not give him a leg up on an Envoy EMPLOYEE. Many of the older guys were mid life career changers or had been out of 121 for years and decided to get back in. At times, a pipeline guy was getting stuck on the 145 or CRJ just because he was young. That is unfair as defined in Webster's. Aside from being more qualified, their company seniority was being thrown out the window. Now, it's fixed fortunately.

    I fully expect Beagle to be like McGarrett peeling rubber out of a crime scene in his hoopdie Lincoln and peel rubber out of this debate because check_six has totally blown away your absolutely ridiculous argument.

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