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Thread: Where will you be when the music stops?

  1. #101
    Registered User Dacuj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griff312 View Post
    I am by no means a cheerleader of any sorts, but to touch on that point... When PSA and PDT got the flow, they were both around 300 pilots or less. (Maybe between 300 and 500 at PSA). Most of those pilots had been there a long time. After thier new respective contracts and flow agreement, they pretty much doubled in size, but still about half the amount of pilots we have now. Those flowing from PSA right now, were there pre-flow agreement. And while it is true that current flows have been on thier respective properties less time than our flows have, current hires at PSA & PDT are projected to flow in 10+ years. While ours is 'touted' to drop to 6. (We'll see if this actually ever manifest). The big difference is that psa & pdt flows a set number a month, as long as AA is hiring. They only send 6 to 8 / month, supposedly. While ours is, well.... SUPPOSED to be 50% / month, meterable to 29. PSA and PDT monthly flowthrough only goes up as total number of pilots on property increase, which thiers are not.
    Exactly exactly exactly. Thanks for answering here and providing such good detail. The bottom line is that with the new 50%/29 agreement and the 5.5/6 year flow, we are set to blow PDT and PSA away.

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    You say WE like you still work here. If you love envoy so much- why did you flow???

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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleFlight2369 View Post
    You say WE like you still work here. If you love envoy so much- why did you flow???
    Lack of awareness of location and circumstances (AKA "situational awareness") could be a sign someone has gone off their meds..............or is in need of some.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Exactly exactly exactly. Thanks for answering here and providing such good detail. The bottom line is that with the new 50%/29 agreement and the 5.5/6 year flow, we are set to blow PDT and PSA away.
    “We”??? gtfo here with that. You don’t work here. Loser. Get a life.
    Last edited by Pinkvisual; 07-13-2018 at 12:21 PM.

  5. #105
    Registered User Dacuj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkvisual View Post
    “We”??? gtfo here with that. You don’t work here. Loser. Get a life.
    If you want to get technical, you are AA the moment you set foot on property at Envoy. You are hired as.....an AA pilot. Do 5.5 to 6 years at Envoy and simply do an interdepartmental transfer. Maybe you forgot Envoy is owned by AAG. Who else is owned by AAG? Oh, let me guess. AMERICAN. It’s all WE. Envoy = Same uniforms as AA, NN tailed airplanes, same computer system, exact same non rev privileges, same paint as AA now none of this “Eagle on the tail BS.” I think you get my drift. Get off the sad train and jump on the AA Express. Because like it or not, we are all the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    If you want to get technical, you are AA the moment you set foot on property at Envoy. You are hired as.....an AA pilot. Do 5.5 to 6 years at Envoy and simply do an interdepartmental transfer. Maybe you forgot Envoy is owned by AAG. Who else is owned by AAG? Oh, let me guess. AMERICAN. It’s all WE. Envoy = Same uniforms as AA, NN tailed airplanes, same computer system, exact same non rev privileges, same paint as AA now none of this “Eagle on the tail BS.” I think you get my drift. Get off the sad train and jump on the AA Express. Because like it or not, we are all the same.
    I asked what suggestions you’d be making in an effort to contractually weaken the AA pilot group like you advocated st Envoy whether you admit it or not. I see your belief of both pilot groups being “the same” and lumping them in with a regional is your chosen tack. That suggestion should go over well with Jerry next year and should get you at least a pawn position on their chess team, especially being on the inside of the pilots.

    Will you be funneling APA union info over too ? It wouldn’t surprise me in the least.

  7. #107
    Super Moderator Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    If you want to get technical, you are AA the moment you set foot on property at Envoy. You are hired as.....an AA pilot. Do 5.5 to 6 years at Envoy and simply do an interdepartmental transfer. Maybe you forgot Envoy is owned by AAG. Who else is owned by AAG? Oh, let me guess. AMERICAN. It’s all WE. Envoy = Same uniforms as AA, NN tailed airplanes, same computer system, exact same non rev privileges, same paint as AA now none of this “Eagle on the tail BS.” I think you get my drift. Get off the sad train and jump on the AA Express. Because like it or not, we are all the same.
    sounds like a case for single carrier petition then......
    __________________________________________________ __

  8. #108
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    Soooo, by that logic, we are all also employed by PSA then too, eh!?!? Sweet! When can I start using thier SAP?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Griff312 View Post
    Soooo, by that logic, we are all also employed by PSA then too, eh!?!? Sweet! When can I start using thier SAP?
    Got to love it, they have SAP, get part of our flow and me to clause, but are flowing 2011 hires. Where is our me to clause?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiz5422 View Post
    Got to love it, they have SAP, get part of our flow and me to clause, but are flowing 2011 hires. Where is our me to clause?
    Exactly... seems like “me too” only works for the others. PDT has 300% OT... what about us?

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    File a grievance

  12. #112
    Registered User Koojo's Avatar
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    What is being missed is the sheer numbers of Envoy pilots who have already flowed. The 2.5/6 not only came true but came true in spades with essentially sitting at 0.6/5.5 right now for prior 121 experience according to the up to date and most recent numbers. If you are an aspiring pilot and desire to one day work at the established largest major, then your path is clear. Go to a partner college, complete your course of study and then begin instructing as a pipeline pilot. You will likely spend no more than 1.5 years at this academy instructing with your reduced ATP mins lowered for an approved university college credit. Then, on to Envoy where you will spend your first 1000 hours gaining 121 experience and then upgrade at the 1.5 year mark. It's on to AA 4 years after that for a total time to AA beginning as a university pipeline instructor of 7 years exactly. I don't know where you can find anything out there that beats this. That's why the majority of candidates are vying for an approved university spot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koojo View Post
    What is being missed is the sheer numbers of Envoy pilots who have already flowed. The 2.5/6 not only came true but came true in spades with essentially sitting at 0.6/5.5 right now for prior 121 experience according to the up to date and most recent numbers. If you are an aspiring pilot and desire to one day work at the established largest major, then your path is clear. Go to a partner college, complete your course of study and then begin instructing as a pipeline pilot. You will likely spend no more than 1.5 years at this academy instructing with your reduced ATP mins lowered for an approved university college credit. Then, on to Envoy where you will spend your first 1000 hours gaining 121 experience and then upgrade at the 1.5 year mark. It's on to AA 4 years after that for a total time to AA beginning as a university pipeline instructor of 7 years exactly. I don't know where you can find anything out there that beats this. That's why the majority of candidates are vying for an approved university spot.
    But to balance out this one-sided sales pitch, what must also be pointed out to a pilot thinking of pursuing this path is that the promises being made above are all based on ASSUMPTIONS nothing will change in this industry or within AA in the next 6 years or longer as getting to AA and being very junior in a 15,000 pilot seniority list could be a very unfortunate place to be if the music stops. Considering the history of past promises that had the IDENTICAL ultimate destination of AA and the cyclical nature of this industry which is now at a peak and due for correction, this timeline is arguably VERY unlikely. Pilots hired at Envoy today have NO GUARANTEE of being at AA in X years.

    N-O-N-E.

    As for the claims of AA being the "largest major", a pilot should no longer consider that as an important metric insofar as what is most critical to a pilots RETURN OF INVESTMENT of money, time and training. Size doesn't really matter. Yes, AA is the largest airline (for now), but in pilot compensation, it is ranked at least 6TH and arguably will fall further back in that metric in the future. I argue you WILL see an argument in the future that AA is unable to provide an industry leading contract to its pilots and in fact, will not even match Delta, the present industry leader. As for quality of life as a pilot, I suggest discussing that with multiple present AA pilots to get a broad spectrum of just what life is like there now and reports are it's NOT what it was like in the past. AA is now closer to LCC's (Low Cost Carriers) like Spirit, Jet Blue and Frontier then true Legacy carriers like Delta and United. From a scheduling perspective which is the foundation of any pilots existence, word is that AA is now being run like a regional and their contract is being violated with similar frequency as occurs at Envoy. Another metric that aspiring pilots MUST evaluate to grade the risk of their investment is an airlines financial health. A MAJOR component of that health is debt and AA's is about 4 times that of Delta and about twice that of United's. Should future cyclical industry forces result in a downturn for the industry eliminating profitability, carriers with large debt will not be as resilient in withstanding such situations and there is increased jeopardy there.

    Bottom Line : The SMART pilot of the future will put the same effort in MAKING future career decisions using research as they do becoming qualified in the first place for such opportunities. Also, savvy pilots will ALWAYS continue to evaluate changes DURING that journey to assess whether a course change is prudent JUST as they would operating an aircraft from A to B. Remember............

    Caveat Emptor.

    Be an INFORMED investor.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 07-14-2018 at 05:17 PM.

  14. #114
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    Dacuj- you mention above you approve of our new hires. What’s funny is- you sit here and BOAST and “attest to their flying skills”- like you know for a fact these guys we are hiring are so great. When in fact- you have very little clue.

    Why do I say you have no clue? Is it because you just so happened to be an ioe Checkairman for a VERY VERY BRIEF TIME.... yes... did you have a failed checking event and they pulled your quals and letter- YES.

    So no wonder why you think they are of high caliber when you are as low caliber as the people you recommend! Spend less time online Chris and more time in the books- it might save your life and the lives of those unfortunate enough to be on your airplane- assuming you still pass first year! Good luck Mongo!

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