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Thread: American has ordered 30 additional regional jets,...

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    American has ordered 30 additional regional jets,...


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    This could increase 2019 capex (including non-aircraft spending) to nearly $5 billion, potentially pushing free cash flow into negative territory.

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ameri...?.tsrc=applewf
    Last edited by NoOtPilot; 05-24-2018 at 05:15 AM.

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    I've been saying essentially many of the same things for awhile now.


    "Cash flow becoming a concern"

    "Balance sheet a mess"

    "Looming train wreck"


    To add to this, AAG also is on the hook for billions in pension obligations over the next several years. Point being (again), Envoy pilots should understand and accept the risks of betting their futures on waiting around many years to get to the bottom of a 15,000 pilot seniority list with the obvious challenges and metrics described. It's possible you could actually be WORSE off junior at AA vs. still at Envoy and senior depending on the scenario. All things considered it IS a risky bet as being very junior at an airline with these hurdles should be. What if Parker succesfully leverages the pension issue against Scope ? Who gets hurt in that equation more.....the senior (with pensions) or the junior ? What does consistent history show (especially at AA) regarding sacrifices when issues are in conflict between the interests of those senior vs. those junior ? All this of course, leaves out world geopolitical or domestic industry issues that could put all carriers including AA in a downturn. History is consistent and we are WAY overdue in timing. Should any of those situations occur, AA in particular is VERY vulnerable considering their internal issues that other carriers don't have. No certainties either way, but only an idiot would ignore the multiple red flags present.


    Caveat Emptor.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-24-2018 at 09:01 AM.

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    It’s irresponsible to stay at Envoy for better quality of life when double the pay and 401K is on the table. Plus if the scenarios you discussed happen, we’ve already seen who gets hurt more and first, Envoy Pilots. I won’t even go into the astronomical retirement numbers and how AA has the oldest pilot group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PSAholes View Post
    It’s irresponsible to stay at Envoy for better quality of life when double the pay and 401K is on the table. Plus if the scenarios you discussed happen, we’ve already seen who gets hurt more and first, Envoy Pilots. I won’t even go into the astronomical retirement numbers and how AA has the oldest pilot group.
    I'm not stating it's necessarily better to stay at Envoy vs. flowing to AA, only that under certain scenarios, it carries more risk. But, different people have different priorities which might not be YOUR priorities, so I find it irresponsible to assume your priorities speak for everyone else. Those "astronomical" retirement numbers have varying value depending on circumstances. If you're counting your flow date and then adding in retirements at AA to determine your advancement path, that's counting your chickens before they hatch. If the AA pilots (or APA, most of whose officers have pensions) vote to save the pension in exchange for Scope, the AAG regional system (and its pilots at that point) win with more and quite possibly larger jets (think AA Group 1). I see AA furlough as remote, but significant stagnation more likely as AA shrinks and the Eagle system grows. Not good for those junior Group II F/O's with nowhere to advance to for an extended period of time.

    Would a Spirit Captain with 15 years at Spirit with 10 as Captain fare better financially then a 15-year Group II F/O at AA ? Considering AA's plunging QWL under a bad PBS system, would a senior "crown jewel" captain in the Eagle system have better QWL or those flows ultra junior at AA ? Would the lifestyle in the latter situation be more palatable even with less pay ? You need to understand you are NOT flowing to the "old, traditional" American Airlines, but a model morphing into America West at least insofar as Group II which is where you'd be residing for what could be many years, even decades like thousands that came before you. Perhaps it's a millennial thing to just ignore history and assume it's all going to flop into your lap like you're sitting under a Coconut tree loaded with ripe Coconuts ?

    How about significant world or industry events causing a major downturn in the airline industry as a whole ? Couldn't happen ? Ask any old Eagle pilot about that when Letter 3 was adopted in 1997 ? Back then they were promising a 5 year flow to AA just like now and look what happened. No one considered the unpleasant scenarios then either. Difference is, we had nothing to learn from then, but now you DO ! Contracts under such situations depending on severity of an "unpleasant" situation ? Two words: Force Majeure. Hey, it's fine to be optimistic, but wise to look around at the landscape both Macro and Micro and plan for the worst. Read that article again and that's just AA. If you want to blindly charge ahead with the Dacuj/Flipster mentality screaming "ALL IS WELL !" like the Kevin Bacon character in Animal House go right ahead, but I think you're setting yourself up for serious risk of emotional devastation should an overly Pollyanna outlook blind you to the signals demonstrating significant risk.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-24-2018 at 01:48 PM.

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    This was in response to a Dacuj post...that he deleted. It was a really good post so, professional, so eloquent, great tone, but for new hires or pilots trying to decide where to go...

    Nothing new...but I like the other Dacuj better.

    2021 will bring a lot of surprises for Dacuj, AA pilots and the flow.
    AAG loves Envoy because is the most inexpensive pilot group among the regionals that feed AAG. That’s why they are not renewing those regionals contracts.

    Are you feeling the love?
    Last edited by NoOtPilot; 05-25-2018 at 06:41 AM.

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    Pretty sure piedmont takes the take as the cheapest regional feed for AA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytrails View Post
    Pretty sure piedmont takes the take as the cheapest regional feed for AA
    But the bet is Envoy ALPA will undercut them. Don’t know much about Piedmont’s MEC, but have they nullified the concept of seniority over there like here ?

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    Nope, they are all seniority while envoy is snowflake bait.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Nope, they are all seniority while envoy is snowflake bait.
    wat

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    So, how about the Check-in time based travel benefits? That circumvents a pure seniority system...and frankly, even being senior, I love it! I can finally have a bit of predictability in my life regarding my ability to get my family on a plane. How many are interested in going back to a seniority-based travel system?

    Pure seniority only works for the senior. I’d even be down for rotating the bidding sequence like Emirates. Have everyone on the list be bottom bid for a portion of the year, while everyone also gets a shot at being in the top bidding group for a portion of the year. That way, any significant periods of stagnation would still provide some periods of relief for the junior folks. And, seniors wouldn’t be so willing to ignore reserve rules in favor of perks for senior lineholders.

    A smart union would have seniority benefits in the right places (pay rate, chance to upgrade, etc...to reward company loyalty), while finding the right opportunities to spread the wealth and/or pain. This would prevent some of the “I got mine...now you can suffer like I did” mentality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    So, how about the Check-in time based travel benefits? That circumvents a pure seniority system...and frankly, even being senior, I love it! I can finally have a bit of predictability in my life regarding my ability to get my family on a plane. How many are interested in going back to a seniority-based travel system?

    Pure seniority only works for the senior. I’d even be down for rotating the bidding sequence like Emirates. Have everyone on the list be bottom bid for a portion of the year, while everyone also gets a shot at being in the top bidding group for a portion of the year. That way, any significant periods of stagnation would still provide some periods of relief for the junior folks. And, seniors wouldn’t be so willing to ignore reserve rules in favor of perks for senior lineholders.

    A smart union would have seniority benefits in the right places (pay rate, chance to upgrade, etc...to reward company loyalty), while finding the right opportunities to spread the wealth and/or pain. This would prevent some of the “I got mine...now you can suffer like I did” mentality.
    Other employees who aren’t pilots have non-rev check-in abilities, so you are muddying up the water improperly using that example. The fact is this MEC has destroyed the seniority concept at this airline.... period.

    New-hires getting paid more then senior pilots and pilots stripped of exercising seniority all for the sake of assisting management with their self-inflicted problems.......and why not ?

    The people green-lighting it avoid the issue as it occurs junior to them and in fact benefit by ponying faster flow. Is it no wonder this pilot group is being flown into the approach lights with philosophies like that ?

    Need we even again bring up the complete and total abandonment of Envoy pilots not flowing ? Not to worry, the next replacements will perpetually sell out the group rationalizing others did it to them and on it goes. In the Watergate debacle, a similar concept was called rat****ing. It’s the screwing over of others for self benefit regardless of the rationalization. These same characters will be junior at AA though and karma might just come back around if things go South for the industry or AA.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-25-2018 at 08:47 PM.

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    Right, sure. You mean like I should have that now because I want it.
    Mec has screwed seniority to help out management that caused the problem.


    You must be new, because check in for travel has always been first come. Seniority only played a role in jumpseat, as it still does at envoy.

    But thanks for your opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Right, sure. You mean like I should have that now because I want it.
    Mec has screwed seniority to help out management that caused the problem.


    You must be new, because check in for travel has always been first come. Seniority only played a role in jumpseat, as it still does at envoy.

    But thanks for your opinion.
    Jumpseat assignment is based on check in time (assuming 2 envoy pilots are listed). It changed about a year ago.

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    You are showing your age. Haha. Snowflake was the Miami Dolphins mascot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 541JRE View Post
    You are showing your age. Haha. Snowflake was the Miami Dolphins mascot.
    Oh god. How did I miss that. In my defense , snowflake is a popular insult to throw around now a days.

    I have seen Ace Ventura though.

    Have the plumbing checked immediately! If I had been drinking out of the toilet, I might have been killed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post


    You must be new, because check in for travel has always been first come. Seniority only played a role in jumpseat, as it still does at envoy.

    But thanks for your opinion.
    Incorrect

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    Well FMP-1 Section 15 page 46, para. 6.1.b. , dated 23 Jan 18 states I am correct. But again this is a company manual, so who knows. But if you are correct, mind telling us where it is stated that seniority does not factor for jumpseat on envoy aircraft between envoy pilots, would be appreciated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglepilot View Post
    Jumpseat assignment is based on check in time (assuming 2 envoy pilots are listed). It changed about a year ago.

    Incorrect

    September 21, 2017

    Envoy pilots,

    American Airlines management has changed their policy to reflect that priority for the jumpseat will now be based on priority list order and no longer on time of check in. As a result of this, D1 listed and checked in pilots will be given priority over D2 pilots when the priority list order is controlling, regardless of check in time (reference the attached/below document for priority on different carriers).

    Priority on our own metal is still based on seniority.

    In short, keeping in mind that “own metal” always wins:
    · The wholly owned carriers will get priority on wholly owned flights via their respective priority list orders.
    · On AA flights, the jumpseat for non-AA pilots will be based off of priority list order
    o Non-wholly owned pilots are D6UJ, which is a lesser priority than a D2
    · On non-wholly owned American Eagle flights, AA/ENY/PDT/PSA are granted the jumpseat based on priority list order (but still behind “own metal” pilots).

    Again, please see below (and attached) for an easy to follow breakdown.

    It is also worth noting that if you do sit in the jumpseat under D1 status your pass bank will be deducted, unlike the old AAG policy. Your pass bank consists of 6 D1s per year. Although this is AA’s policy, it is not advised out of respect to your fellow commuters to USE a D1 or CHANGE from a D2 to a D1 for the sole intention of securing the cockpit jumpseat.

    The Jumpseat Committee has created a document (below and attached) that should help pilots determine who should get the jumpseat if an unclear scenario arises at the gate. This document is also uploaded to the Jumpseat Committee section of www.envoy.alpa.org.

    Please feel free to reach out to the Jumpseat Committee with any questions you may have at ENYJump@alpa.org

    Thanks for keeping the jumpseat professional,

    Joseph Chance
    Chairman
    Envoy Jumpseat Committee
    Joseph.Chance@alpa.org
    Jumpseat Quick Reference Guide
    For expanded Envoy Jumpseat priority reference FM-1 Section 15.6.1
    Envoy flights:
    1. Envoy pilots based on seniority
    2. Other FDJ EAGs (PDT/PSA) based on priority list order
    3. FDJ AAs based on priority list order
    4. Other airline pilots based on priority list order

    American Airlines flights:
    1. American Airlines Pilots (primary, alternate, then priority list)
    2. Wholly owned pilots (FDJ EAGs) based on priority list order
    3. Other pilots based on priority list order

    Wholly owned American Eagle flights (Piedmont and PSA)
    1. Pilots commuting on their own metal
    2. Wholly owned pilots (FDJ EAGs) based on priority list order
    3. FDJ AAs based on priority list order
    4. Other airline pilots based on priority list order

    Non-wholly owned American Eagle flights (Mesa, Republic, etc.)
    1. Pilots commuting on their own metal
    2. Other airline pilots based on priority list order (D1/D2 is above a D6UJ on the priority list)

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    Thanks Threadstone! That's the complete breakdown, right there, boys!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Treadstone View Post
    Incorrect

    September 21, 2017

    Envoy pilots,

    American Airlines management has changed their policy to reflect that priority for the jumpseat will now be based on priority list order and no longer on time of check in. As a result of this, D1 listed and checked in pilots will be given priority over D2 pilots when the priority list order is controlling, regardless of check in time (reference the attached/below document for priority on different carriers).

    Priority on our own metal is still based on seniority.

    In short, keeping in mind that “own metal” always wins:
    · The wholly owned carriers will get priority on wholly owned flights via their respective priority list orders.
    · On AA flights, the jumpseat for non-AA pilots will be based off of priority list order
    o Non-wholly owned pilots are D6UJ, which is a lesser priority than a D2
    · On non-wholly owned American Eagle flights, AA/ENY/PDT/PSA are granted the jumpseat based on priority list order (but still behind “own metal” pilots).

    Again, please see below (and attached) for an easy to follow breakdown.

    It is also worth noting that if you do sit in the jumpseat under D1 status your pass bank will be deducted, unlike the old AAG policy. Your pass bank consists of 6 D1s per year. Although this is AA’s policy, it is not advised out of respect to your fellow commuters to USE a D1 or CHANGE from a D2 to a D1 for the sole intention of securing the cockpit jumpseat.

    The Jumpseat Committee has created a document (below and attached) that should help pilots determine who should get the jumpseat if an unclear scenario arises at the gate. This document is also uploaded to the Jumpseat Committee section of www.envoy.alpa.org.

    Please feel free to reach out to the Jumpseat Committee with any questions you may have at ENYJump@alpa.org

    Thanks for keeping the jumpseat professional,

    Joseph Chance
    Chairman
    Envoy Jumpseat Committee
    Joseph.Chance@alpa.org
    Jumpseat Quick Reference Guide
    For expanded Envoy Jumpseat priority reference FM-1 Section 15.6.1
    Envoy flights:
    1. Envoy pilots based on seniority
    2. Other FDJ EAGs (PDT/PSA) based on priority list order
    3. FDJ AAs based on priority list order
    4. Other airline pilots based on priority list order

    American Airlines flights:
    1. American Airlines Pilots (primary, alternate, then priority list)
    2. Wholly owned pilots (FDJ EAGs) based on priority list order
    3. Other pilots based on priority list order

    Wholly owned American Eagle flights (Piedmont and PSA)
    1. Pilots commuting on their own metal
    2. Wholly owned pilots (FDJ EAGs) based on priority list order
    3. FDJ AAs based on priority list order
    4. Other airline pilots based on priority list order

    Non-wholly owned American Eagle flights (Mesa, Republic, etc.)
    1. Pilots commuting on their own metal
    2. Other airline pilots based on priority list order (D1/D2 is above a D6UJ on the priority list)
    Then please advise the ORD, DFW and NY CPO and advise AA to update the jumpseat documents online.
    Last edited by eaglepilot; 05-27-2018 at 03:31 PM.

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