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Thread: PUB event 5/24

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blizzue View Post
    I drove the van from the union office (in Euless) to training (in Euless) and gave rides to union pilots (the horror) which was being paid for by union pilots anyways.

    Meals were paid for in accordance with ALPA policy, quit ALPA I guess?

    I hang around because some people forget what really happened and pretend they are champions when they’re really scourges. Cujo being the worst of them all. Opponent of every good thing to ever happen to eagle, momentary union rep, immediately fired for being a ****ty employee. He’s a liar and the most bitter of any employee (can’t blame him, he lost a million dollar plus retirement because he’s an idiot).

    I have a vested interest in Eagle. Like an alma mater I want to want see succeed. Get over it.
    Wait...you keep posting on this forum because you want to see Envoy succeed? I hate to break this to you, but you are deluded. Nothing you do on here is contributing to the success of the airline or Envoy pilots in general. The people contributing to it’s success are those of us moving the metal, taking care of our passengers, making tangible contributions to the betterment of this place. Throwing stones at Cujo on this board doesn’t do one damn thing to help us. Trying to “set the record straight” does absolutely ZERO for those of us here. The crap you bring up (and I’m going to drag Beagle into this one as well) does 100% NOTHING to better this place.

    The constant food fights between Dacuj and Beagle, your promoting a false f-ing narrative about the TT days, and even Cujo being around to tell us how much better things are outside of Envoy do nothing but help tear apart our group. Frankly, we’d be better off if you all just focused on you own lives and let us handle ours.

    You want to be helpful??? How about posting tips about how to do well on the UAL interview. Help those who have an interest in ending up there. Meet with some of our pilots and see if they are worth giving a recommend or helping them network. Those types of things would be 1000 TIMES more useful that dredging up the past. If you truly gave a crap, you would know all of this and would be a benefit to Envoy and to this forum space.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robsquatch View Post
    How many Irish car bombs can you do in a night. Do you have any “snacks”
    Probably three? Why?

    ALPA guidance for expensing alcohol was to use the code “snacks” but I never had to use it. Every meal I expensed that contained alcohol was approved by ALPA local (and national). “Your” money went to a good cause.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    Wait...you keep posting on this forum because you want to see Envoy succeed? I hate to break this to you, but you are deluded. Nothing you do on here is contributing to the success of the airline or Envoy pilots in general. The people contributing to it’s success are those of us moving the metal, taking care of our passengers, making tangible contributions to the betterment of this place. Throwing stones at Cujo on this board doesn’t do one damn thing to help us. Trying to “set the record straight” does absolutely ZERO for those of us here. The crap you bring up (and I’m going to drag Beagle into this one as well) does 100% NOTHING to better this place.

    The constant food fights between Dacuj and Beagle, your promoting a false f-ing narrative about the TT days, and even Cujo being around to tell us how much better things are outside of Envoy do nothing but help tear apart our group. Frankly, we’d be better off if you all just focused on you own lives and let us handle ours.

    You want to be helpful??? How about posting tips about how to do well on the UAL interview. Help those who have an interest in ending up there. Meet with some of our pilots and see if they are worth giving a recommend or helping them network. Those types of things would be 1000 TIMES more useful that dredging up the past. If you truly gave a crap, you would know all of this and would be a benefit to Envoy and to this forum space.
    100% serious: PM me for UAL info.

    All other points: I have always refuted incorrect information. Period.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blizzue View Post
    100% serious: PM me for UAL info.

    All other points: I have always refuted incorrect information. Period.
    I hope that many on this board will take you up on the offer for UAL info. For those who are interested...any good info helps!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    I hope that many on this board will take you up on the offer for UAL info. For those who are interested...any good info helps!!
    While we all may disagree on politics- never forget I spent two years volunteering my time to better the pilot group. I will always do what I can to better the pilot group. My comments are always intended to assist and never to hurt an eagle pilot.

    If you want to come to UAL- don’t let politics stand in the way. I am absolutely willing to assist.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    Wait...you keep posting on this forum because you want to see Envoy succeed? I hate to break this to you, but you are deluded. Nothing you do on here is contributing to the success of the airline or Envoy pilots in general. The people contributing to it’s success are those of us moving the metal, taking care of our passengers, making tangible contributions to the betterment of this place. Throwing stones at Cujo on this board doesn’t do one damn thing to help us. Trying to “set the record straight” does absolutely ZERO for those of us here. The crap you bring up (and I’m going to drag Beagle into this one as well) does 100% NOTHING to better this place.
    It sounds like the “crap” I bring up involves realities you find too painful to confront. To wit......

    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    The constant food fights between Dacuj and Beagle, your promoting a false f-ing narrative about the TT days, and even Cujo being around to tell us how much better things are outside of Envoy do nothing but help tear apart our group. Frankly, we’d be better off if you all just focused on you own lives and let us handle ours.
    .......it doesn’t look like you are “handling” anything at Envoy very well. In the years since I’ve left, your QWL has plummeted to the worst in this carriers (or its predecessors) history, you continue to give one gift after another to management all to serve one purpose and your leadership (you ?) has literally flushed the most sacred concept (seniority) in this profession down the toilet, handing it over on a silver platter to management, something no other pilot group has ever done in the history of this profession and you again demonstrate your abject disregard for where you presently are by saying........

    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    You want to be helpful??? How about posting tips about how to do well on the UAL interview. Help those who have an interest in ending up there. Meet with some of our pilots and see if they are worth giving a recommend or helping them network. Those types of things would be 1000 TIMES more useful that dredging up the past. If you truly gave a crap, you would know all of this and would be a benefit to Envoy and to this forum space.
    ........^^^^ this ^^^^, that being more concern not with where you ARE, but somewhere else you want to be. NOTHING will ever change here UNTIL you confront that which you deny for the purpose of learning from it to avoid repeating it. Alas, it is not to be and thus the past continues on refusing to disappear as you so desperately want it to so as to continue bathing in the warm embrace of denial. You are your own enemy my poor, misguided friend, not those who shine the light on your reality, nor confront those attempting to make sure that light stays off.

    Hey, I’m willing to learn, so perhaps you can tell me just what this Association leadership has “handled” over the last 5 years making this airline a better experience then it used to be NOT for where it MIGHT get you, but for what it is ?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    It sounds like the “crap” I bring up involves realities you find too painful to confront. To wit......



    .......it doesn’t look like you are “handling” anything at Envoy very well. In the years since I’ve left, your QWL has plummeted to the worst in this carriers (or its predecessors) history, you continue to give one gift after another to management all to serve one purpose and your leadership (you ?) has literally flushed the most sacred concept (seniority) in this profession down the toilet, handing it over on a silver platter to management, something no other pilot group has ever done in the history of this profession and you again demonstrate your abject disregard for where you presently are by saying........



    ........^^^^ this ^^^^, that being more concern not with where you ARE, but somewhere else you want to be. NOTHING will ever change here UNTIL you confront that which you deny for the purpose of learning from it to avoid repeating it. Alas, it is not to be and thus the past continues on refusing to disappear as you so desperately want it to so as to continue bathing in the warm embrace of denial. You are your own enemy my poor, misguided friend, not those who shine the light on your reality, nor confront those attempting to make sure that light stays off.

    Hey, I’m willing to learn, so perhaps you can tell me just what this Association leadership has “handled” over the last 5 years making this airline a better experience then it used to be NOT for where it MIGHT get you, but for what it is ?
    Why stop at the last 5 years? Why not 10? Or 15??

    First of all, you are unequivocally not “willing to learn.” You are like one of those guys who sits around Monday morning quarterbacking other crews...telling everyone how you would have done things differently. I don’t know what the current ALPA players did to piss you off, but you clearly have trouble letting go.

    Now, don’t get me wrong... I am unimpressed with anything our Association at both the local and national levels has done since the day I got to this airline. I’ve seen financial abuse, policy violations, political maneuvering, in-fighting, national officers supporting another MEC while they took concessions to effectively undercut us, etc. My favorite is when the company approaches ALPA with some benefit for the pilots, wrap it up and hand to them on a platter, and then we receive a Comm about how ALPA fought the good fight and “won” this great thing for we the little guys. The whole union business is just filled with wannabe politicians trying to get theirs...with a few decent humans mixed in as volunteers on various committees. Don’t get me confused with some ALPA cheerleader.

    That said, ALPA is supposedly a representative of the pilot group. So, outside viewers like you shouldn’t be too surprised when they focus on helping people move on from Envoy, since that is what 80-90% of the pilots here want to do. So, if they are representing the group, it shouldn’t surprise anyone when they continually negotiate (or get handed and accept) things that benefit the will of the majority. Not saying I agree with it, but as there appears to be a waiting line to get in here... the street has spoken.

    You and I are dinosaurs. We remember an airline that no longer exists. Envoy doesn’t have the same ownership or even business model as the old Eagle. We compete for feed rather than owning 97% of it. Flow (although a benefit to many) decimates our captain ranks and takes much of our long-time talent pool of instructors. The “old guard” positions in the school house are offered and turned down these days. The Assoc. promotes flow over QOL, but if they didn’t then many (most?) pilots would move on to chase rates at Endeavor or Spirit. This isn’t our Eagle any more. And, if lifers want to take over ALPA and change things...well, they have every right to get involved.

    This airline may never provide “a better experience than it used to be”. So long as AAG uses flow as a recruiting and retention tool, and brings in people whose career goals see Envoy as nothing more than a stepping stone to AA, you will likely never see big QOL gains at this carrier.

    Not sure if you’ve looked at the new AA Cadet Academy, but it is basically designed to promote a high school-to-AA track that avoids college. None of their selected schools are university programs. Just wait until this airline is full of pilots without degrees whose only hope for getting to AA is the flow.

    You need to address reality and put down the memories of a better past. Or don’t, I could care less.
    Last edited by check_six; 05-22-2018 at 06:52 AM.

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    “Every meal I expensed that contained alcohol was approved by ALPA local (and national””

    Whatever dude. Didn’t Tony appoint that “local” guy?

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    Cujo. If I remember right you have more info on snackgate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robsquatch View Post
    “Every meal I expensed that contained alcohol was approved by ALPA local (and national””

    Whatever dude. Didn’t Tony appoint that “local” guy?
    I think the sec/treas is elected.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by copycopy View Post
    Right, I forget that there are people who no longer work at Envoy that continue to frequent these forums for some reason. The back and forth with Dacuj muddied the waters a bit as I didn’t know whether he was accurate or not with his points about you not working at Envoy, as I tend not to trust anything he says. I don’t follow every single post on here, I just see a lot of the garbage you two throw at each other - I guess this is just your vitriolic playground.
    Amen. Vitriol is the name of his, and others here game. Fortunately there are a few of us here to counteract the hate and vitriol spewed here daily. Surprisingly I can actually see why beagle has so much hate. When a company morphs and changes into something so much better than anything you ever experienced and you don’t have the ability to participate, example - slip through the cracks to AA on the absolute tail end of your career while Envoy’s flow and growth explode, then I can see it. Sort of. But some of the others here. The 10%ers. I can’t figure these out. You go from the old American Eagle way to the new and improved Envoy way that sends you to AA guaranteed and you f-ing bitch about it.

    Mind. Blown.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    Amen. Vitriol is the name of his, and others here game. Fortunately there are a few of us here to counteract the hate and vitriol spewed here daily. Surprisingly I can actually see why beagle has so much hate. When a company morphs and changes into something so much better than anything you ever experienced and you don’t have the ability to participate, example - slip through the cracks to AA on the absolute tail end of your career while Envoy’s flow and growth explode, then I can see it. Sort of. But some of the others here. The 10%ers. I can’t figure these out. You go from the old American Eagle way to the new and improved Envoy way that sends you to AA guaranteed and you f-ing bitch about it.

    Mind. Blown.
    “When a company morphs and changes into something so much better than anything you ever experienced.”
    😂



    To get more seats on the MAX, American Airlines (NASDAQ: AAL) installed new lavatories that — according to one AA captain who spoke at a recent crew meeting presided over by AA President Robert Isom — are only 75 percent of the size of the lavs on AA’s fleet of 737-800s.

    That AA captain who spoke up called using one of the new aft lavs on the MAX the “most miserable experience in the world.” The captain further explained that he couldn’t even turn around in the new lav. The Chicago Business Journal obtained an audio tape of the crew meeting in which the AA captain spoke.

    Isom responded to the concerned pilot and tried to explain why AA installed the kind of lav it did on the MAX, though he didn’t dispute the AA captain’s experience using the lavs. Nor did Isom signal that AA was about to rip out the smaller lavs and replace them.

    Isom said the real estate on the MAX is very valuable, hence the need to maximize the revenue that real estate can generate by maximizing seating on the MAX. One way that was accomplished was by downsizing the lavs and by decreasing the seat pitch throughout the MAX, and soon throughout hundreds of 737-800s.

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    Flipper be tripin’ again.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robsquatch View Post
    Cujo. If I remember right you have more info on snackgate
    Yes, National required several members to repay the association.
    Blizzue, by his own admission here was also a party to this. He also used the van contrary to written policy, regardless of claimed intent.

    Their MEC was publicly concerned over the budget. They passed a rule prohibiting the purchase of alcohol with member money. This gave the appearance of being fiscally responsible and good stewards of members money.
    Instead, they began turning in the generic credit card receipt instead of the detailed receipt of what was purchased because they were buying booze in violation of association rules. They also used a union credit card for several purchases. Labor law requires detailed receipts when a union card is used; they didn’t. They also concealed alcohol purchases under the title of “snacks” All of the receipts were approved. TT got rid of the MEC Sec/Treas that tried to expose it; then they got approval to approve expenditures themselves. So, one would submit the bogus receipt and the other would quickly approve it. National never bothered to look or Check MEC approved expenses.
    Only one week was audited, and National never followed up with a more expansive audit.

    Essentially, they took union money and were forced to pay it back.


    The issues today are different.
    The association is allowing bandaids
    The association is allowing changes weakening seniority
    The association is enabling this management team


    Reserve has been broken since 117 went into effect; yet the association keeps allowing all these bandaids and changes without insisting QOL and reserve issues be fixed

    they won’t rock the boat; don’t want to get fired before flowing.
    Last edited by Cujo665; 05-22-2018 at 10:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    Why stop at the last 5 years? Why not 10? Or 15??
    Why ? Because it covers most of the time since I've been there and THAT was the reference of my past post, that's why. But for arguments sake lets go back 20 years, shall we ?

    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    First of all, you are unequivocally not “willing to learn.” You are like one of those guys who sits around Monday morning quarterbacking other crews...telling everyone how you would have done things differently. I don’t know what the current ALPA players did to piss you off, but you clearly have trouble letting go.
    Looking back over 20 years since the 1997 contract, has each successive ALPA leadership improved the situation there or not ? Having been there at that time, I can say each successive amendment round eroded that contract each time and here's a news flash, that piss poor leadership goes all the way back to the Texas Mafia and even beyond in the case of certain pre-merger Eagle carriers. What is my point ?

    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    Now, don’t get me wrong... I am unimpressed with anything our Association at both the local and national levels has done since the day I got to this airline. I’ve seen financial abuse, policy violations, political maneuvering, in-fighting, national officers supporting another MEC while they took concessions to effectively undercut us, etc. My favorite is when the company approaches ALPA with some benefit for the pilots, wrap it up and hand to them on a platter, and then we receive a Comm about how ALPA fought the good fight and “won” this great thing for we the little guys. The whole union business is just filled with wannabe politicians trying to get theirs...with a few decent humans mixed in as volunteers on various committees. Don’t get me confused with some ALPA cheerleader.
    My point was to learn from the past and the mistakes others have made so as not to repeat them. Here's another news flash....that includes ME ! There's a major difference now as opposed to then though and that is back then, the focus was on OUR contract and QWL as opposed to another airline's. Nothing wrong with having a flow mechanism UNLESS it becomes something that A. destroys any ability to negotiate improvements to such contract (like the rest of the industry is doing right before your eyes), B. is used or allowed to be used to divide the group (which it has and is) and C. uses false hope to distract and create apathy immobilizing the group into passive mindlessness. As it stands now, the present leadership has far excelled the previously flawed leaderships in virtually every area relegating themselves to active lackey's and lapdogs to management, offering virtually anything asked so long as their drug is not withheld or delayed. It's gotten to the point that few even question anything anymore and thus why would your leadership even bother with pilot voting anymore ? They certainly didn't with the latest Christmas present. If this is normal to you and a situation that can be rationalized as acceptable, you are too far gone to save IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    That said, ALPA is supposedly a representative of the pilot group. So, outside viewers like you shouldn’t be too surprised when they focus on helping people move on from Envoy, since that is what 80-90% of the pilots here want to do. So, if they are representing the group, it shouldn’t surprise anyone when they continually negotiate (or get handed and accept) things that benefit the will of the majority. Not saying I agree with it, but as there appears to be a waiting line to get in here... the street has spoken.
    ...and what happens when the street stops speaking ? What happens when the exit door closes for any significant period ? My guess is a lot of whining and complaining. But, if you are going to build your present house with bad cement and rotted wood, don't cry when it collapses around you one day. Some pilots say if they stop the flow then there will be a "mass exodus", but if circumstances force that there likely will be few other places to leave to then as usually when the music stops, it stops for all and we are WAY overdue in that area. Again, nothing wrong with seeking and strengthening things that "the majority" want, but when that sacrifices a minority or causes the damage mentioned above, you are building your house with bad cement and rotted wood. One day should you get to AA, remember then too you will be the minority then and that philosophical shoe will be on the other foot and it will be the senior pilots who have lost too much already with pensions to consider sacrificing to ease the pain of the junior and VERY junior.

    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    You and I are dinosaurs. We remember an airline that no longer exists. Envoy doesn’t have the same ownership or even business model as the old Eagle. We compete for feed rather than owning 97% of it. Flow (although a benefit to many) decimates our captain ranks and takes much of our long-time talent pool of instructors. The “old guard” positions in the school house are offered and turned down these days. The Assoc. promotes flow over QOL, but if they didn’t then many (most?) pilots would move on to chase rates at Endeavor or Spirit. This isn’t our Eagle any more. And, if lifers want to take over ALPA and change things...well, they have every right to get involved.
    We may be dinosaurs, but we are VERY different species. My species (and there are others both outside and with Envoy) is making some effort to show the past, how it looks compared to the present, the mistakes being continually made...............mistakes that I made and the parallels in error all in the hope of putting present (and future) Envoy pilots in the best possible position when the not-so-good-times arrive, whereas your species seems to rationalize gambling your well-being all for a drug that is presently hurting your existence and a drug whose final, ultimate high is not certain to arrive at any point in the future. The excuses you list above are not impediments to rebuilding your house with more strength, but your focus has gotten too out of whack to make that happen. If you are going to advocate simply throwing up your hands acknowledging your own impotence and offering blank checks to management like you describe being the new reality, don't be surprised when others are critical of that, nor when they highlight that to others who are considering Envoy as occurs on other forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    This airline may never provide “a better experience than it used to be”. So long as AAG uses flow as a recruiting and retention tool, and brings in people whose career goals see Envoy as nothing more than a stepping stone to AA, you will likely never see big QOL gains at this carrier.
    NO ! Your last sentence SHOULD read, "so long as WE allow AAG to use the flow as a recruiting tool and ignore virtually everything else about working for Envoy, we will CERTAINLY never see big QOL gains at this carrier". At least absent anything management does to assist in keeping Envoy viable. This statement is a textbook example of someone who has had their expectations managed to the point of being convinced of what management wants you to believe, i.e., you are powerless, under complete control and should simply stop thinking like organized labor and that's another of my points. You need to take some responsibility as to the level this pilot group has allowed itself to sink to.

    You are no longer "organized labor". Not really. You (both the ALPA leadership and membership) have been managed to the point of complete irrelevance from that standpoint. It's not a matter of achieving less or a downward slide, but of complete self-annihilation even to relinquishing the last core of what a unionized group of airlines pilots possess.....it's "Alamo" (the last, most important thing to defend). THE SENIORITY SYSTEM.

    NO other pilot group in this industry has bastardized the most sacred concept a pilot group possess and one which is the foundation of their existence like this MEC. NONE.

    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    Not sure if you’ve looked at the new AA Cadet Academy, but it is basically designed to promote a high school-to-AA track that avoids college. None of their selected schools are university programs. Just wait until this airline is full of pilots without degrees whose only hope for getting to AA is the flow.
    ...and who not only green-lighted the ability of management to do this and for virtually nothing of substance in return, mind you ? You ask what occurs when this pilot group has mostly the pilots you state ? Why, the answer is simple; EXACTLY WHAT IT HAS NOW, that being a pilot group that can go no lower, become no weaker and irrelevant and be any more unwilling to offer anything asked of it for either peanuts or nothing......just don't threaten to take our flow buzz away ! Let's hope YOU are not still on property should unforeseen circumstances force you to live for a long time in that broken down structure living where you are so willing to ****, ostensibly in the belief you'll be gone before the stench becomes intolerable.

    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    You need to address reality and put down the memories of a better past. Or don’t, I could care less.
    You should care, because if my concerns become YOUR reality for any significant period of time, it is you who will be suffering. I can assure you I will take no joy in that though. If you do get to AA and unforeseen circumstances force more pain on those junior, I expect there will be no calls from you for the senior to sacrifice for the junior and the "majority" will rule. After all, remember AA is notorious for eating their young and most senior aren't going to sacrifice uncompensated in their final years for you, especially having lost all that they have already. On that note, pray the APA never puts scope in front of the pilot group voting anonymously for $$$. I understand denial and avoidance are more comfortable and the attraction of 'whistling past the cemetery' as a coping mechanism, but that won't make the realities I see disappear, only hide them from view to those that prefer NOT to confront reality by avoiding the messages the past tries to help them with.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-22-2018 at 12:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirsnacksalot View Post
    Flipper be tripin’ again.
    Yes, we see yet another post of mine of "hate" toward Envoy pilots. Hucksters can only sell their worthless wares using deceit, subterfuge and deflection.

    Who really hates Envoy pilots ? Those trying to help them by highlighting painful realities they have forgotten how to see in the hope they will become better for it, or those desperately trying to keep Envoy pilots in the darkness of denial giving them nothing more then they have now and all for the benefit of those who profit from such an existence ? This first step in self-correction is acknowledgement of reality, for without it, nothing can ever BE corrected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    “When a company morphs and changes into something so much better than anything you ever experienced.”
    ��



    To get more seats on the MAX, American Airlines (NASDAQ: AAL) installed new lavatories that — according to one AA captain who spoke at a recent crew meeting presided over by AA President Robert Isom — are only 75 percent of the size of the lavs on AA’s fleet of 737-800s.

    That AA captain who spoke up called using one of the new aft lavs on the MAX the “most miserable experience in the world.” The captain further explained that he couldn’t even turn around in the new lav. The Chicago Business Journal obtained an audio tape of the crew meeting in which the AA captain spoke.

    Isom responded to the concerned pilot and tried to explain why AA installed the kind of lav it did on the MAX, though he didn’t dispute the AA captain’s experience using the lavs. Nor did Isom signal that AA was about to rip out the smaller lavs and replace them.

    Isom said the real estate on the MAX is very valuable, hence the need to maximize the revenue that real estate can generate by maximizing seating on the MAX. One way that was accomplished was by downsizing the lavs and by decreasing the seat pitch throughout the MAX, and soon throughout hundreds of 737-800s.
    Not just pilots say this, but F/A's and PAX. They are redoing the rest of the 737 fleet with the MAX setup by jamming in 2 more rows on the NG by pushing the lavs/galleys farther forward and backward and eliminating the mid cabin bulkhead between Business and Economy. Those in first row of MCE can actually kick the seatbacks of the last row of business if they want to as the only thing separating the two classes is a flimsy plastic panel that hangs partway down from the overhead.

    Although neither pilots not F/A's will benefit from this development (F/A's have to work harder actually), it's a financially smart move for an LCC like America West. It also retains the atrocious comfort level for anyone taller then about 5'9".
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-22-2018 at 10:42 AM.

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    Nothing Cujo has to say is relevant or correct.

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    What part wasn’t correct because I remember it the way he said. Not many left around here that were on eaglelounge back then

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    The navigate, 2000 dollar meals. 20 dollar bottle of water. Cujo is correct, the others are trying to rewrite history to protect the guilty

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