Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 40

Thread: APC "Current Envoy Facts"

  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,949
    Level
    61
    Points: 8,391, Level: 61
    Overall activity: 77.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 209/18
    Given: 66/145

    Ignore User

    APC "Current Envoy Facts"


    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Someone on APC is stating regarding Envoy growth that Envoy will add a net of 38 aircraft in 2018 and another 15 in 2019. If about 300 will flow in 2018 (all captains) and it is reasonable to assume at least another 100 (perhaps half captains) leave for elsewhere, Envoy will need 400 replacement pilots this year to maintain status quo. Adding 38 aircraft by December will require another 380 pilots or 780 pilots hired. This is being conservative IMO. It also means they'll need about 29 fresh, fully qualified captains each month or about 9 per week.

    How many has Envoy hired so far this year and how many have upgraded ?

    It would be good info to see if this is possible. An additional 150 pilots over and above end of 2018 will be needed in 2019 only exacerbating Envoy's need for moving even more pilots through the mill to keep the flow going considering more are likely to move to greener pastures then AA then in 2018. Seems like an overly optimistic plan to me.

  2. #2
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    208
    Level
    39
    Points: 3,927, Level: 39
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 10/0
    Given: 0/0

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    My understanding is that they’re well short of their targets and this recent agreement is a bandaid on a gaping wound. Although a mechanism was given to the company to streamline direct entry captains, they still need to recruit them. I don’t think CA pay from the outset and some hotels is enough. It’s amazing to me that management continues to play dumb regarding the labor shortage that is already upon us and refuses to issue any meaningful increases to pay rates and/or quality of life. Eventually they’re going to have to do something that actually benefits everybody on property and those to come as well, as the bonuses clearly have reached a point of diminishing returns.

  3. #3
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,949
    Level
    61
    Points: 8,391, Level: 61
    Overall activity: 77.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 209/18
    Given: 66/145

    Ignore User

    1 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by copycopy View Post
    My understanding is that they’re well short of their targets and this recent agreement is a bandaid on a gaping wound. Although a mechanism was given to the company to streamline direct entry captains, they still need to recruit them. I don’t think CA pay from the outset and some hotels is enough. It’s amazing to me that management continues to play dumb regarding the labor shortage that is already upon us and refuses to issue any meaningful increases to pay rates and/or quality of life. Eventually they’re going to have to do something that actually benefits everybody on property and those to come as well, as the bonuses clearly have reached a point of diminishing returns.
    Agreed. I was interested in actual numbers of both new-hires and upgrades as of say, 5/1 to getter a better idea of just how far they are behind the power curve.

  4. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    208
    Level
    39
    Points: 3,927, Level: 39
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 10/0
    Given: 0/0

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    If I had to guess... incipient spin, immediate corrective action is required but you’re not dead yet

  5. #5
    Registered User NoOtPilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,495
    Level
    100
    Points: 54,928, Level: 100
    Overall activity: 99.9%
    Achievements:
    OverdriveSocialVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    DownloadsPosting AwardActivity Award
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 137/37
    Given: 0/0

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Which regional airline would envoy have to merge with, that will supply these kind of numbers.

    ie. Southwest/AirTran

  6. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    208
    Level
    39
    Points: 3,927, Level: 39
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 10/0
    Given: 0/0

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    Which regional airline would envoy have to merge with, that will supply these kind of numbers.

    ie. Southwest/AirTran
    The only logical choice would be PDT and take advantage of operational efficiencies by merging the route structure and seniority lists. XJT is too big and complicated. Another possibility would be TSA, but they’re also a hot mess.

  7. #7
    Registered User DolphinsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    177
    Level
    29
    Points: 2,346, Level: 29
    Overall activity: 16.0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 10/54
    Given: 0/1

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Kind of funny that the huckster with 5 or 6 screen names on APC comes on here and comments about someone else there. Envoy is growing. More airplanes, more Captains and now more flow. And this huckster is STILL screaming chicken little and to get out while you can. Jealousy will do that to you.

    Oh, nice cultural rot thread over there you started. You aren’t getting any takers over there. At least most APCers have some brains about them.

  8. #8
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,949
    Level
    61
    Points: 8,391, Level: 61
    Overall activity: 77.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 209/18
    Given: 66/145

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    Kind of funny that the huckster with 5 or 6 screen names on APC comes on here and comments about someone else there. Envoy is growing. More airplanes, more Captains and now more flow. And this huckster is STILL screaming chicken little and to get out while you can. Jealousy will do that to you.

    Oh, nice cultural rot thread over there you started. You aren’t getting any takers over there. At least most APCers have some brains about them.
    Same old rebuttal of nothingness. A blanket statement of “Envoy is growing, more airplanes and more captains”, but just like when asked of you by your other screen name here, you provide ZERO information on the fuzzy math and dubious projections all this hope is based on. You (regardless of which name YOU post under here) offer nothing and no one seems to be buying your sham. Heck, you can’t even come up with any originality when describing me, resorting to hijacking my description regarding you !

    I’ve stated firmly before I don’t post on APC, so just out of curiousity, what are my other identities there you claim are me ? Personally, I wouldn’t be surprised the poser on APC as being a neutral pilot “offering” that info is in fact you. Your cadre has done that before, I have little doubt.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-09-2018 at 08:44 PM.

  9. #9
    Newbie Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4
    Level
    39
    Points: 3,873, Level: 39
    Overall activity: 22.0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 2/0
    Given: 1/0

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Same old rebuttal of nothingness. A blanket statement of “Envoy is growing, more airplanes and more captains”, but just like when asked of you by your other screen name here, you provide ZERO information on the fuzzy math and dubious projections all this hope is based on. You (regardless of which name YOU post under here) offer nothing and no one seems to be buying your sham. Heck, you can’t even come up with any originality when describing me, resorting to hijacking my description regarding you !

    I’ve stated firmly before I don’t post on APC, so just out of curiousity, what are my other identities there you claim are me ? Personally, I wouldn’t be surprised the poser on APC as being a neutral pilot “offering” that info is in fact you. Your cadre has done that before, I have little doubt.
    The "poser" on APC is me. Same handle.
    As i said in my post on APC, i have no battle to fight, i receive no incentive for my post, i have no axe to grind, i dont try to sell anything.
    I spend 2 hours writing a post in hopes of bringing A clearer picture about what to expect at envoy.
    I did it mainly because i got somewhat tired of reading a lot of nonsense.
    I have tried to use only facts and, i believe, did a pretty decent job leaving my opinion out of it.
    Ultimately i hope it helps pilots decide if Envoy is for them.
    As for the fleet number, you are reading way too much into it. I absolutely could be wrong by a dozen airframe. It is pretty difficult to get an accurate number on a given day. I used current airline profile number plus all the newsletter from our company to get an idea of what the fleet total would be. Honestly i dont think i m really far from the actual number.
    The difficult fleet to count is the EMJ. By 2019, it could be 110, like it could be 150. I dont know how fast they are coming from storage.
    But seriously man, slow down. Not everything is a conspiracy. You could have asked me directy the question.

  10. #10
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,949
    Level
    61
    Points: 8,391, Level: 61
    Overall activity: 77.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 209/18
    Given: 66/145

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fopuddle View Post
    The "poser" on APC is me. Same handle.
    As i said in my post on APC, i have no battle to fight, i receive no incentive for my post, i have no axe to grind, i dont try to sell anything.
    I spend 2 hours writing a post in hopes of bringing A clearer picture about what to expect at envoy.
    I did it mainly because i got somewhat tired of reading a lot of nonsense.
    I have tried to use only facts and, i believe, did a pretty decent job leaving my opinion out of it.
    Ultimately i hope it helps pilots decide if Envoy is for them.
    As for the fleet number, you are reading way too much into it. I absolutely could be wrong by a dozen airframe. It is pretty difficult to get an accurate number on a given day. I used current airline profile number plus all the newsletter from our company to get an idea of what the fleet total would be. Honestly i dont think i m really far from the actual number.
    The difficult fleet to count is the EMJ. By 2019, it could be 110, like it could be 150. I dont know how fast they are coming from storage.
    But seriously man, slow down. Not everything is a conspiracy. You could have asked me directy the question.
    OK, I'll take your assertion of not being one of the hucksters at face value. But, your post DOES raise questions. Among them are that you termed it one of representing "facts", yet here you seem to claim your facts were really more just ballpark guesses as per your fleet issue. You now seem to be throwing fleet numbers that vary wildly. If you're going to make posts using a headline regarding "Facts" and then include information that is not fact, don't you think that's a disservice to those looking for exactly that...........facts ? I'll accept you had no nefarious intent (unlike others), but under these circumstances and considering the continuous and repetitive "nonsense" that IS being thrown out there, it bolsters credibility if any info under a title of factuality makes sense and opposed to nonsense. As for conspiracies, yes, some things indeed conspiracies, I can assure you. I don’t wear a tinfoil hat as some believe and wish no ill will to Envoy as to do that would be wishing ill will to Envoy pilots, I just think it’s time to become smarter and not fall prey yet again to manipulation and being managed.

    As for asking you directly, I have no ability to do that on APC as I am not a member of that forum and can only read. It's just a suggestion, but perhaps you could post a clarification of your fleet assertions (which after all is the foundation of much of the projected advancement metrics upgrade and flow are based on) in the interest of accuracy and credibility ?
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-09-2018 at 09:43 PM.

  11. #11
    Newbie Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4
    Level
    39
    Points: 3,873, Level: 39
    Overall activity: 22.0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 2/0
    Given: 1/0

    Ignore User

    1 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Absolutely. Point taken. When i read your post, i actually thought about that "fact" issue. While everything else is factually correct, the fleet count is harder to narrow down accurately.
    This is why i havent used absolute language, hence the use of words like "about".
    I see where you assumed that i implied the net gain for 2018 would be 38.
    In reality, it s impossible to tell since we dont know exactly how many of the 50 added 140 are already included in the 109 EMJ airframe total count. Thats why i said throughout 2018.
    None the less, i will try to figure out how to edit the post to make it less ambiguous and more straight forward.

    Edit : APC doesnt allow editing past 15 min after the initial publication.
    I modified some of the wording in a updated post, on page two of the thread.
    Last edited by Fopuddle; 05-09-2018 at 11:10 PM. Reason: Wording

  12. #12
    Registered User DolphinsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    177
    Level
    29
    Points: 2,346, Level: 29
    Overall activity: 16.0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 10/54
    Given: 0/1

    Ignore User

    -1 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Same old rebuttal of nothingness. A blanket statement of “Envoy is growing, more airplanes and more captains”, but just like when asked of you by your other screen name here, you provide ZERO information on the fuzzy math and dubious projections all this hope is based on. You (regardless of which name YOU post under here) offer nothing and no one seems to be buying your sham. Heck, you can’t even come up with any originality when describing me, resorting to hijacking my description regarding you !

    I’ve stated firmly before I don’t post on APC, so just out of curiousity, what are my other identities there you claim are me ? Personally, I wouldn’t be surprised the poser on APC as being a neutral pilot “offering” that info is in fact you. Your cadre has done that before, I have little doubt.
    Same old tired response. I’m just calling you a huckster because that’s a term you can understand as a demented old man with an ax to grind and jealousy issues to top it off. I have provided FACTS here. In fact, I’ve offered the same info as the company and union. You just can’t see the positives here through those jealousy glasses you wear.

    You NEVER would have guessed the flow was going to increase. But it just did and it’s a hard pill for you to swallow I’m sure. We just decreased the flow time again while adding approximately 38 aircraft to the fleet.

    Heres an idea. Why not take up shuffleboard or ping pong? I’m sure they offer those at your assisted living facility.

  13. #13
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    48
    Level
    42
    Points: 4,426, Level: 42
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 7/0
    Given: 0/0

    Ignore User

    1 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    If you want to be outed the same way chris was. Keep it up.

  14. #14
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,949
    Level
    61
    Points: 8,391, Level: 61
    Overall activity: 77.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 209/18
    Given: 66/145

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    Same old tired response. I’m just calling you a huckster because that’s a term you can understand as a demented old man with an ax to grind and jealousy issues to top it off. I have provided FACTS here. In fact, I’ve offered the same info as the company and union. You just can’t see the positives here through those jealousy glasses you wear.

    You NEVER would have guessed the flow was going to increase. But it just did and it’s a hard pill for you to swallow I’m sure. We just decreased the flow time again while adding approximately 38 aircraft to the fleet.

    Heres an idea. Why not take up shuffleboard or ping pong? I’m sure they offer those at your assisted living facility.
    I ask you specific questions and you evade them with more insults. Let’s try again;

    A. Who do you claim me to be on APC ?

    B. Since Envoy will be adding 38 aircraft this year requiring at least an additional 380 pilots and probably 5-10 % more to account for a training bubble above January 1 pilot metrics, how many pilots have been hired to date and how many upgrade’s (to line qualified status) have been completed to date ?

    Question B. is a valid question which you have the data to answer, yet all you offer are cowardly insults. Come on, this is your chance to shine !
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-10-2018 at 08:38 AM.

  15. #15
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,949
    Level
    61
    Points: 8,391, Level: 61
    Overall activity: 77.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 209/18
    Given: 66/145

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by EagleFlight2369 View Post
    If you want to be outed the same way chris was. Keep it up.
    If he wasn’t as smooth as a Ken doll and had any balls in the first place, he’d be standing behind his identity when his primary M.O. is personal attack. Only a coward hides behind anonymity and does that. Chris had no problem with it either until he was outed and then look what happened - he fled the forum until the dust settled a bit and now is a shadow of his former self in the personal attack department.

  16. #16
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    77
    Level
    41
    Points: 4,202, Level: 41
    Overall activity: 24.0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 7/5
    Given: 1/1

    Ignore User

    1 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Someone on APC is stating regarding Envoy growth that Envoy will add a net of 38 aircraft in 2018 and another 15 in 2019. If about 300 will flow in 2018 (all captains) and it is reasonable to assume at least another 100 (perhaps half captains) leave for elsewhere, Envoy will need 400 replacement pilots this year to maintain status quo. Adding 38 aircraft by December will require another 380 pilots or 780 pilots hired. This is being conservative IMO. It also means they'll need about 29 fresh, fully qualified captains each month or about 9 per week.

    How many has Envoy hired so far this year and how many have upgraded ?

    It would be good info to see if this is possible. An additional 150 pilots over and above end of 2018 will be needed in 2019 only exacerbating Envoy's need for moving even more pilots through the mill to keep the flow going considering more are likely to move to greener pastures then AA then in 2018. Seems like an overly optimistic plan to me.
    You are in the ballpark with your numbers. The company says they need 33-36 street captains a month. They haven't been close to that target until this month. Time will tell going forward.

  17. #17
    Registered User DolphinsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    177
    Level
    29
    Points: 2,346, Level: 29
    Overall activity: 16.0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 10/54
    Given: 0/1

    Ignore User

    -1 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by EagleFlight2369 View Post
    If you want to be outed the same way chris was. Keep it up.
    If you think you are man enough you sad sack then go for it. At the least, I don’t LIE on here and try to represent the truth so I have no problem being “outed” for that. And by the way, I fully intend to “keep it up”

  18. #18
    Registered User DolphinsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    177
    Level
    29
    Points: 2,346, Level: 29
    Overall activity: 16.0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 10/54
    Given: 0/1

    Ignore User

    -1 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    I ask you specific questions and you evade them with more insults. Let’s try again;

    A. Who do you claim me to be on APC ?

    B. Since Envoy will be adding 38 aircraft this year requiring at least an additional 380 pilots and probably 5-10 % more to account for a training bubble above January 1 pilot metrics, how many pilots have been hired to date and how many upgrade’s (to line qualified status) have been completed to date ?

    Question B. is a valid question which you have the data to answer, yet all you offer are cowardly insults. Come on, this is your chance to shine !
    You have 5 or 6 screen names on APC so it’s hard to keep up. Ag386 and rondonq1 come to mind immediately though.
    Ive answered question B p,entry of times here. Go back and do a search where I posted numbers.

  19. #19
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,949
    Level
    61
    Points: 8,391, Level: 61
    Overall activity: 77.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 209/18
    Given: 66/145

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr mojo View Post
    You are in the ballpark with your numbers. The company says they need 33-36 street captains a month. They haven't been close to that target until this month. Time will tell going forward.
    Which makes increasing the flow all the more questionable, because now they’ll need even more captains, especially if they will need another 200 or so Captains for the 38 new aircraft. More importantly, they must have the ability to successfully TRAIN these new captains and meet that metric each and every month. Aren’t street captains supposed to get 50 hours of IOE ?

    I’m just trying to figure out how they’ll do it and that’s why I ask what they have done so far in the new-hire/upgrade dept. What if outside attrition spikes going forward this year ? What if despite their best hopes, the poaching pilgrimage to Envoy doesn’t occur with the latest sales pitches like $113K to start (followed by at least a $34K pay cut) or the implausible 4.5 year flow ? I want to see Envoy pilots succeed, but that requires confidently achievable and realistic goals instead of desperate hail mary’s by a team seemingly way behind in the 4th quarter.

    If their plans don’t work out, are they willing to scale back this planned growth to flow 29/month ? For that matter, are they willing to contract if necessary to maintain 29/month to AA ? If not, what’s plan B should that be necessary ? We also must remember despite all this the complete abandonment of those who don’t want to flow by both the company and the Association.

  20. #20
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,949
    Level
    61
    Points: 8,391, Level: 61
    Overall activity: 77.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 209/18
    Given: 66/145

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    You have 5 or 6 screen names on APC so it’s hard to keep up. Ag386 and rondonq1 come to mind immediately though.
    Ive answered question B p,entry of times here. Go back and do a search where I posted numbers.
    As for B., you haven’t answered jack squat. To do that would require specifics TO DATE. You’re evading again. As for APC identities, hmm..........

    Obviously you are just guessing and considering your hysteria, it’s no wonder you see me everywhere you look. “5 or 6” has now melted to two. The “rondonq” (rum ?) character used to post on Eaglelounge I believe back in the day under the same name. Not me, but believe what you want, but you’re dead wrong. As for “ag386”, obviously you aren’t very observant of your OWN claims. By your own assertion, I’m supposed to be a senile, recently “forced retired” (age 65) AA F/O with anger and jealousy issues and ag386 freely admits to being a former Envoy pilot who bailed to Allegiant.

    How can I be both ?

    Either he (I) am lying on that forum or you are full of it here. You’re chasing your own tail flipper, but it works for you and actually is a fun show to watch for me, so I’m cool with it......and you wonder why virtually no one gives you any credibility ?
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-10-2018 at 09:06 AM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •