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Thread: New Flow Agreement?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vne View Post
    The ennui here is strong and not the least bit surprising, all things considered.

    The company got:

    1. Street captains.
    2. Assigning senior RSV FO's flight time in order to swiftly force their upgrade.
    3. Standing vacancy to stick those forced upgrades somewhere faster than every quarter.
    4. No pay raises.
    5. No reserve rule changes.
    6. Staffing saved due to not having to send more to AA faster.

    The pilots got:
    1. Flow about where it should have been before the company shenanigans.
    2. Some hotels and plane tickets in LGA for 3 months or base transfer (whichever comes first).
    3. Captain pay upon award of captain status.
    4. No re-assignment if displaced from trips for FOs.

    The big takeaway?

    If you're the company:
    1. Create self-induced problem that affects the flow.
    2. Let the pilot union negotiate away a little here, a little there, maybe a little over there.
    3. Agree to do what you were supposed to do in the first place in return for what the union will give up.
    4. Wash, rinse, repeat until the contract is worth less than the electrons it takes to display it.
    5. Profit!

    If you're the pilots:
    1. BOHICA.

    Just my observation.

    ETA: I guess since the less than enthusiastic response to the last proposed reserve rule changes we can expect to not vote on anything again.
    The company got what they wanted. IMO, it won't materially alter the future obstacles though. As for your list of what the pilots got, I would make two additional notes.

    A. Not ALL pilots "got" something. Once again, those not flowing are demonstrated to be invisible to this MEC and got nothing as the MEC all wants to flow and this should prove where their mindset is.
    B. Those that negotiated and approved such an agreement (again without so much as a peep to those they supposedly represent.............ALL those they supposedly represent) got a faster flow for themselves.

    Shameful, but predictable. What can Sam say other then that he just goosed his own flow engine up a few months at the expense of some and the abandonment of others ?

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    Soon another airline will bring a lot of Captains and FO’s to our airline and our junior fo’s on the (unchanged group) are going to pay a high price for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    The company got what they wanted. IMO, it won't materially alter the future obstacles though. As for your list of what the pilots got, I would make two additional notes.

    A. Not ALL pilots "got" something. Once again, those not flowing are demonstrated to be invisible to this MEC and got nothing as the MEC all wants to flow and this should prove where their mindset is.
    B. Those that negotiated and approved such an agreement (again without so much as a peep to those they supposedly represent.............ALL those they supposedly represent) got a faster flow for themselves.

    Shameful, but predictable. What can Sam say other then that he just goosed his own flow engine up a few months at the expense of some and the abandonment of others ?
    I should have divided them into “Flowing” and “Not Flowing”. BOHICA stands, though.
    Warlord of the crewroom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    Soon another airline will bring a lot of Captains and FO’s to our airline and our junior fo’s on the (unchanged group) are going to pay a high price for it.
    Good Lord, man! I’m going to start calling you the Crypt Keeper if you continue with these posts! If you know something spit it out!

    You’re killing us, Smalls! Lol.
    Warlord of the crewroom.

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    Brilliant move by the MEC, the “flowing”group (changed group) is guarantee to be out off here just before 2021. And that was a huge win, for them. They did protect and defended a pilot group.

    Well Done! That’s why you become involved in the union, to deal with the company and take care off yourself.

    BRAVO!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vne View Post
    The ennui here is strong and not the least bit surprising, all things considered.

    The company got:

    1. Street captains.
    2. Assigning senior RSV FO's flight time in order to swiftly force their upgrade.
    3. Standing vacancy to stick those forced upgrades somewhere faster than every quarter.
    4. No pay raises.
    5. No reserve rule changes.
    6. Staffing saved due to not having to send more to AA faster.

    The pilots got:
    1. Flow about where it should have been before the company shenanigans.
    2. Some hotels and plane tickets in LGA for 3 months or base transfer (whichever comes first).
    3. Captain pay upon award of captain status.
    4. No re-assignment if displaced from trips for FOs.

    The big takeaway?

    If you're the company:
    1. Create self-induced problem that affects the flow.
    2. Let the pilot union negotiate away a little here, a little there, maybe a little over there.
    3. Agree to do what you were supposed to do in the first place in return for what the union will give up.
    4. Wash, rinse, repeat until the contract is worth less than the electrons it takes to display it.
    5. Profit!

    If you're the pilots:
    1. BOHICA.

    Just my observation.

    ETA: I guess since the less than enthusiastic response to the last proposed reserve rule changes we can expect to not vote on anything again.
    1. They already could do street captains, but they were violating other parts of the contract. My understanding is the standing vacancy streamlines this process.
    2. This expires next Feb and only affects guys with over 800 hours, so apart from a handful of guys that are getting screwed now all the other people who want to wait can sit rsv until 800 hours (that takes a while)
    3. Standing vacancy is completely voluntary in the language, can’t be 15.G.4’d.
    4-6. Agreed, still need changes in those areas.

    What pilots got...
    I just want to point out that I think the hotels in NY were primarily for the company. That works as a recruitment tool for all of the DECs they’re after.

    I don’t really get the ‘we gave up the farm’ crowd, but we did give up some things. It’s also harsh to see that we needed to buy the flow again, but I guess a bird in hand...

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    Soon another airline will bring a lot of Captains and FO’s to our airline and our junior fo’s on the (unchanged group) are going to pay a high price for it.
    Some form of merger or acquisition definitely is reasonably possible for Envoy. It would be one of the last remaining options for viability as the regional industry collapses upon itself. Considering Envoy's supposed ravenous appetite for expanding by another 1,000 to 1,500 pilots to become the future Aeroflot of the US regional system (the claim of the huckster(s)), that would be likely the only way to do it and kick the can longer. In the case of consolidation of one or both other WO's into Envoy, all would have flow ability and considering that in an SLI scenario, it would indeed slow down the total flow rate for those at Envoy. Should an outside pilot group be the target, it could be argued that they had no flow expectations and in that respect would essentially be stapled to the Envoy flow list even though their merged seniority wouldn't.

    Sounds great, but that in itself raises a problem in that those pilots would have much more incentive to bail ASAP as even the most senior would be ions from flow, which would likely negate the whole point of acquiring such a carrier. In that case, Envoy would likely be right back where it started from pre-acquisition and quickly. This latest Band-Aid is just that and ultimately more mud will have to be thrown at the problem, but soon their wont be any mud left. If $113,000/year for new-hires and promises of 4.5 year flow to AA doesn't solve the problem once and for all, what will ?

    They're dancing as fast as they can though and the MEC just gave them a new record to dance to courtesy of the pilots they represent who either weren't invited to the dance (non flows) or told to stand along the wall for until they flow in "4.5 years" (which will be longer). BTW, oil is heading up and if the Middle East detonates due to the exit of the Iran deal, the airline industry will be the first in the U.S. to feel the shock wave.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by copycopy View Post
    1. They already could do street captains, but they were violating other parts of the contract. My understanding is the standing vacancy streamlines this process.
    2. This expires next Feb and only affects guys with over 800 hours, so apart from a handful of guys that are getting screwed now all the other people who want to wait can sit rsv until 800 hours (that takes a while)
    3. Standing vacancy is completely voluntary in the language, can’t be 15.G.4’d.
    4-6. Agreed, still need changes in those areas.

    What pilots got...
    I just want to point out that I think the hotels in NY were primarily for the company. That works as a recruitment tool for all of the DECs they’re after.

    I don’t really get the ‘we gave up the farm’ crowd, but we did give up some things. It’s also harsh to see that we needed to buy the flow again, but I guess a bird in hand...
    Expect to "buy" again in the future as let's face it, this pilot groups consecutive leaders have had YOUR wallets out for decades. The grievances should have been limited to the grievances instead of giving up a dollar to get 50 cents (for some) and bupkus for others. The next group wants to flow too, the company knows that they will have them by the short and curly's too and history will yet again repeat itself. There simply aren't enough pilots in the pipeline fast enough to feed the bulldog and this is all just more can kicking.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    Brilliant move by the MEC, the “flowing”group (changed group) is guarantee to be out off here just before 2021. And that was a huge win, for them. They did protect and defended a pilot group.

    Well Done! That’s why you become involved in the union, to deal with the company and take care off yourself.

    BRAVO!
    Get used to this philosophy should unforeseen geopolitical, domestic or industry events change things at either Envoy or AA, as it runs both ways. On APC, there's one character who goes by "fatman" and in post #143 on the Sam Pool Email thread he validates the concept of pilots "looking out for themselves" with a 'sucks to be you' attitude. That concept is real and as I've stated before, there's a flipside to flowing to AA that does carry significant risk. That is SENIOIRTY. Being junior in potentially risky times at any carrier has its risks and many pilots nowadays are oblivious to this industries historic volatility. They only see (and thus rationalize) a meteoric moon shot in their careers devoid of setbacks and forget or deny that the cyclic history of airlines makes the riskiest time when things have been going good for awhile and the longer the riskier. It's like buying stocks at the highpoint of the 200 day average. History also shows those most comfortable rationalizing situations they just happen to benefit from, scream the loudest when they suddenly end up on the other side of the fence.

    AA has almost 17 Billion in debt last I recall and their revenue stream hinges in large part on a source that is destined to dissolve at an increasing rate and I question how well AA can withstand any downturns. As for those like the fatman, I'll bet once he gets to AA and should a bad economic scenario occur with unfortunately perfect timing, he'll be screaming the loudest at what those senior are willing to do to cushion the pain of those junior like him. He'll likely be stunned when the answer goes along the same lines of what he espouses in that post, essentially an "sorry man, it sucks to be you" response. In good times, pilots prove they are out for themselves just like the MEC just did, but boy oh boy................in the not so good times ?

    Baby, you ain't seen nothin' yet.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 05-09-2018 at 10:58 AM.

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    Fat Man
    Fat Man Bomb
    The Fat Man atomic bomb being readied on Tinian

    The initial design for the plutonium bomb was also based on using a simple gun design (known as the "Thin Man") like the uranium bomb. As the plutonium was produced in the nuclear reactors at Hanford, Washington, it was discovered that the plutonium was not as pure as the initial samples from Lawrence's Radiation Laboratory. The plutonium contained amounts of plutonium 240, an isotope with a rapid spontaneous fission rate. This necessitated that a different type of bomb be designed. A gun-type bomb would not be fast enough to work. Before the bomb could be assembled, a few stray neutrons would have been emitted from the spontaneous fissions, and these would start a premature chain reaction, leading to a great reduction in the energy released.

    Seth Neddermeyer, a scientist at Los Alamos, developed the idea of using explosive charges to compress a sphere of plutonium very rapidly to a density sufficient to make it go critical and produce a nuclear explosion.

    Fat Man Specifications
    Length: 128.375 inches (10 feet 8 inches / 3.25 meters)
    Diameter: 60.25 inches (5 feet / 1.5 meters)
    Weight: 10,265 lbs (4,656 kg)
    Yield: 21 kilotons (+/- 10%)
    SB58.jpg

  11. #31
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    Did not this new loa require after the ppg, in order to flow you must be a captain or have been a captain

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Did not this new loa require after the ppg, in order to flow you must be a captain or have been a captain
    If Street Captains block the left seat to ours FO’s, it will be a while before they upgrade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Did not this new loa require after the ppg, in order to flow you must be a captain or have been a captain
    Isn’t there a 1 year lock-in ?

    If so, I realize Sam will be long gone by then and probably couldn’t care less, but has anyone asked him how that will work out should each and every month have less then 29 Captains who have completed their lock-in’s ? Sounds like a great way for the company to contractually be able to send less to flow.

    Caveat Emptor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    If Street Captains block the left seat to ours FO’s, it will be a while before they upgrade.
    ....and even longer before they flow if it’s a requirement to flow in seniority order and a 1 year lock-in is required. They’ll have to wait for every more senior F/O to upgrade and complete a lock-in which will gum up the whole flow scheme.

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    Ah, now people see the reality

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    ....and even longer before they flow if it’s a requirement to flow in seniority order and a 1 year lock-in is required. They’ll have to wait for every more senior F/O to upgrade and complete a lock-in which will gum up the whole flow scheme.
    You're saying no one will flow if the next guy to go hasn't completed their flow lock?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mdot View Post
    You're saying no one will flow if the next guy to go hasn't completed their flow lock?
    I suppose they could just flow the more junior Envoy pilot first leapfrogging more senior Envoy pilots still in a lock-in (they are now more senior at AA) or waive a lock-in.

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    Always been before, you get locked you are locked. If junior guy has no lock, he is out of here. Current flow is seniority base by virtue top to bottom select flow or not. Company goes top to bottom on.list every time, pilot who is locked is bypassed to next pilot who is not, they are tjen.put in pool and flow when it's their turn. The locked pilot will have to wait until they have completed lock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Always been before, you get locked you are locked. If junior guy has no lock, he is out of here. Current flow is seniority base by virtue top to bottom select flow or not. Company goes top to bottom on.list every time, pilot who is locked is bypassed to next pilot who is not, they are tjen.put in pool and flow when it's their turn. The locked pilot will have to wait until they have completed lock.
    OK, good info. I assumed they were required to actually FLOW in Envoy seniority order, but it sounds they just have to "select" flow in Envoy seniority order and it can work out that more junior Envoy pilots end up more senior at AA. That's how Letter 3 worked. Thanks for the clarification. Of course, I assume the company still has the option to waive a lock-in even though they never have (at least with Letter 3).

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    Yes, company can waive lock in, but I would not hold my breath. It's not in their best interests.

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