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Thread: Contract language - Canceling vacations

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    Registered User Divine Wind's Avatar
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    Contract language - Canceling vacations


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    Heads up to all those with summer vacation plans; Section 8, para. K of the Contract states:

    K. CANCELED VACATION
    1. A vacation will only be canceled when the needs of the service
    necessitate the postponement and it will be done in reverse order of
    seniority in the affected status. The Company will notify the MEC
    Chairman prior to the cancellation.

    2. If a bid vacation is canceled by the Company, the pilot will not lose
    earned vacation because of cancellation. Canceled vacation will be
    rescheduled as soon as possible at a mutually agreeable time or
    carried over to the next year, if necessary. The rescheduled vacation
    will be non-cancel-able.

    3. In the event that due to Company postponement of a pilot's vacation,
    the pilot loses a non-refundable or non-transferable deposit, the pilot
    will be reimbursed for such loss.

    4. In the event that the company forces a pilot to cancel, postpone, or
    delay a previously awarded vacation because of a conflict with
    training for a displacement bid award, the company will reimburse the
    pilot for such losses
    .


    One reason vacation might be canceled this summer is due to the pilot hiring shortage. Should that happen, a second course of action is slowing the flow over the summer. IF vacations are, indeed, canceled over the summer, how does that affect our free passes? My wife and I planned a trip in July.
    Ego Credam Ubi Vidi
    I'll believe it when I see it

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    Registered User No Tuna In Cockpit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Wind View Post
    Heads up to all those with summer vacation plans; Section 8, para. K of the Contract states:

    K. CANCELED VACATION
    1. A vacation will only be canceled when the needs of the service
    necessitate the postponement and it will be done in reverse order of
    seniority in the affected status. The Company will notify the MEC
    Chairman prior to the cancellation.

    2. If a bid vacation is canceled by the Company, the pilot will not lose
    earned vacation because of cancellation. Canceled vacation will be
    rescheduled as soon as possible at a mutually agreeable time or
    carried over to the next year, if necessary. The rescheduled vacation
    will be non-cancel-able.

    3. In the event that due to Company postponement of a pilot's vacation,
    the pilot loses a non-refundable or non-transferable deposit, the pilot
    will be reimbursed for such loss.

    4. In the event that the company forces a pilot to cancel, postpone, or
    delay a previously awarded vacation because of a conflict with
    training for a displacement bid award, the company will reimburse the
    pilot for such losses
    .


    One reason vacation might be canceled this summer is due to the pilot hiring shortage. Should that happen, a second course of action is slowing the flow over the summer. IF vacations are, indeed, canceled over the summer, how does that affect our free passes? My wife and I planned a trip in July.
    Gonna be fun for those who have already booked their ATW reward travel and booked hotels/cruises and such. I sense a grievance that will take 3 years to settle coming.

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    I warned about this possibility previously as Summer's are always stressed due to increased flying, full vacation and historically higher sick usage. In consideration of reports Envoy's recruitment of street captains is a fraction of what they need to be and this is where flow-thru's are siphoned, it stands to reason something must give. My guess is the company will come to their chum's at the MEC for relief and considering it is many of them who could face potential delay for flow as they are getting close, a deal will be made. If not, they'll throw up their hands and claim helplessness. I'd brace for another aspect of Summer stress, especially Captains. The real concern is that there is simply no realistic staffing solution going forward and Envoy is in a pickle due to ravenous expansion hopes, so this may not be a temporary situation. I suspect the most important thing now is for the ALPA officers nearing flow to make it into the AA lifeboat on time and so my condolences in advance of the significant possibility of an impending QWL Level 5 TRW heading many Envoy pilots way.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 04-18-2018 at 10:17 AM.

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    Registered User DolphinsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    I warned about this possibility previously as Summer's are always stressed due to increased flying, full vacation and historically higher sick usage. In consideration of reports Envoy's recruitment of street captains is a fraction of what they need to be and this is where flow-thru's are siphoned, it stands to reason something must give. My guess is the company will come to their chum's at the MEC for relief and considering it is many of them who could face potential delay for flow as they are getting close, a deal will be made. If not, they'll throw up their hands and claim helplessness. I'd brace for another aspect of Summer stress, especially Captains. The real concern is that there is simply no realistic staffing solution going forward and Envoy is in a pickle due to ravenous expansion hopes, so this may not be a temporary situation. I suspect the most important thing now is for the ALPA officers nearing flow to make it into the AA lifeboat on time and so my condolences in advance of the significant possibility of an impending QWL Level 5 TRW heading many Envoy pilots way.
    None of this stuff happened 4 or 5 years ago when you were ranting about it on EL and APC. It's STILL not happening and here you are again spewing the same bulls***. I think even the diehards here quit listening to you. Take a hike and get yourself a padded room.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    None of this stuff happened 4 or 5 years ago when you were ranting about it on EL and APC. It's STILL not happening and here you are again spewing the same bulls***. I think even the diehards here quit listening to you. Take a hike and get yourself a padded room.
    I didnít start the thread, yet you target me for attack as usual. I defend my post is valid as Envoy DOES have a captain staffing problem as evidenced by not only forcing new-hires into many of those seats, but all but begging for them with questionable claims and promises and offering exorbitant sums of money and apparently coming up short. Sending 25/month to AA consistently is a tall order.

    Denial might be your reality, but I think Envoy pilots would be wise to plan for the worst considering the present circumstances. In the meantime, do us all a favor and go beach yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by No Tuna In Cockpit View Post
    Gonna be fun for those who have already booked their ATW reward travel and booked hotels/cruises and such. I sense a grievance that will take 3 years to settle coming.
    It isn't a certainty and this concern could easily be put to rest with a simple statement by management that no vacations will be cancelled. Surely the MEC must know that Envoy has a Captain staffing issue and you'd think they'd be proactive about reassuring pilots concerned their QWL will suffer as a result. Of course, that would probably be considered rocking the boat, so perhaps someone else could inquire seeking assurances. Flipper claims this is all bunk and so seeing as that's obviously true, it should be easy to dispel. In fact, how about it Flipper ? Why don't you make yourself useful to the pilot group for a change and take this ball and run with it ?

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    As long as sam get to flow in September, all is well.

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    [QUOTE=ardvark;47383]As long as sam get to flow in September, all is well.[/QUOTE

    Well, blame your grandparents for not getting you on this earth any sooner, so you couldíve been hired earlier?

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    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    Oooo, what you said. You ever hear of, the blind being lead by the blind, well that's where you fit in. Oblivious to actual facts as long as flow keeps flushing at the detriment to the rest of the regional industry. You do understand you are paid way less and qol being the worst than any other regional, of course you know.
    For you the proper phrase is bottom up.

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    Registered User Divine Wind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Tuna In Cockpit View Post
    Gonna be fun for those who have already booked their ATW reward travel and booked hotels/cruises and such. I sense a grievance that will take 3 years to settle coming.
    Unfortunately true. At the moment, this is all speculation. I was just pointing out the contract based on Training house discussions.
    Ego Credam Ubi Vidi
    I'll believe it when I see it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    I didn’t start the thread, yet you target me for attack as usual. I defend my post is valid as Envoy DOES have a captain staffing problem as evidenced by not only forcing new-hires into many of those seats, but all but begging for them with questionable claims and promises and offering exorbitant sums of money and apparently coming up short. Sending 25/month to AA consistently is a tall order.

    Denial might be your reality, but I think Envoy pilots would be wise to plan for the worst considering the present circumstances. In the meantime, do us all a favor and go beach yourself.
    Do you even realize that the flow is contratual? If the flow was slowed then AA would be jeopardizing their own feed. So, no, not going to happen. As for April itself, 27 Envoy pilots flowed. 2 more than contractual. They are absolutely honoring the contract.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    Do you even realize that the flow is contratual? If the flow was slowed then AA would be jeopardizing their own feed. So, no, not going to happen. As for April itself, 27 Envoy pilots flowed. 2 more than contractual. They are absolutely honoring the contract.
    We’re tredding trodden ground here, that being Envoy management has a long, well documented history of violating contracts, so nothing is sacred in your CBA. Besides, we’re not necessarily talking about flow or lack thereof, we’re talking about things they may be forced to do to continue to flow, like cancelling vacations and/or scaling back expansion/block hours, etc. You have to admit they are throwing everything they have at this accelerating problem and they are about out of things to throw. The pilots just aren’t there and for newer Envoy pilots many years away from flow, barring a miracle their flow assumptions are extremely questionable.

    As for the potential vacation issue, again that can be put to rest by Envoy making a statement they will not cancel vacations, especially for captains. If they are unwilling to do that then...........we’ll, I rest my case. Come on.......fling your fellow pilots a mackerel or two and get them to make that statement. Of course, even if they do, it’s useless unless they live up to it.

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    Registered User Divine Wind's Avatar
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    There are several factors involved before we'd start seeing vacations cancelled. These are a few:

    The company's recruiting goals would fall shorter than planned.

    Training goals are not achieved in a timely manner.

    FOs forced to upgrade and forced to another domicile quit in higher than expected numbers.

    Alter-ego airlines cannot maintain monthly flying goals leaving Envoy to fill the gap.
    Ego Credam Ubi Vidi
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    Most of the above mentioned factors are happening. Itís just not public knowledge as of yet.

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    Will this be only captains or also first officers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Jimenez View Post
    Will this be only captains or also first officers?
    Everyone, to include mothers and children. Not in the language "per se," but it will be interpreted that way.

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    7 years on property
    still stuck with 2 weeks paid vacation a year.
    lost one of my week last year due to upgrade training.
    Essentially, by the time my vacation rolls up, this summer, I will have had 1 week off in 2 years.
    Absolutely ridiculous.
    got a huge trip planned with my family. So many moving parts involved. Years of planning went into it as well as 1000’s of dollars already paid.
    If they cancel vacation, this will be a hard pill to swallow. At some point, pilots need to get some off time. I know I do, if for nothing else than for my sanity and for safety.
    if that happens, all the big wigs better not be on vacation during the summer and better be flying the line.
    sorry... rant over.

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    Donít apologize. They need to hear how it effects people. Like the end of ďChristmas vacationĒ. Btw shouldnít everyone be at 200% critical coverage OT right about now?

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    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    200% should be regular pay.
    Sir, can I have another.

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    Mesa has been at 300% for quite sometime and it hasnít helped.

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