Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: SMS and Fuel

  1. #1
    Registered User Divine Wind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Job
    CA
    A/C Flown
    EMB
    Posts
    1,138
    Level
    66
    Points: 9,694, Level: 66
    Overall activity: 99.9%
    Achievements:
    Overdrive5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 202/5
    Given: 132/2

    Ignore User

    SMS and Fuel


    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    The FAA has been pushing Safety Management System (SMS) for several years. In order to work, there are several requirements from airline management. While many airline managers often claim they put safety as #1, some airlines clearly put profit ahead of safety and just roll the dice on the safety of their passengers. Fortunately, Envoy has an excellent safety record and I'd like to see it kept that way for as long as I work here and as long as my family flies on our great airline.

    If any pilots have concerns about how their flight is fueled, I respectfully suggest they utilize the safety tools made available to them, including the company's support for SMS and write up a report, either as an ASRS or ASAP. Please send a copy to your local reps or directly to MEC Safety so that it can be acted upon in a timely manner.

    Here are a few links for those who are unfamiliar with SMS:
    https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/sms/


    https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/sms/explained/
    Safety Management Systems (SMSs) for product/service providers (certificate holders) and regulators will integrate modern safety risk management and safety assurance concepts into repeatable, proactive systems. SMSs emphasize safety management as a fundamental business process to be considered in the same manner as other aspects of business management.

    By recognizing the organization's role in accident prevention, SMSs provide to both certificate holders and FAA
    :

    • A structured means of safety risk management decision making
    • A means of demonstrating safety management capability before system failures occur
    • Increased confidence in risk controls though structured safety assurance processes
    • An effective interface for knowledge sharing between regulator and certificate holder
    • A safety promotion framework to support a sound safety culture

    Note slide #22 of "Just Culture": https://www.faa.gov/about/initiative..._programme.pdf

    https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/...ac_120-92b.pdf
    Just Culture. The organization should engage in identification of systemic errors,
    implement preventative corrective action, and exhibit intolerance of undesirable behaviors such
    as recklessness or willful disregard for established procedures. This is often referred to as
    a “just culture.”

    Ego Credam Ubi Vidi
    I'll believe it when I see it

  2. #2
    Registered User Divine Wind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Job
    CA
    A/C Flown
    EMB
    Posts
    1,138
    Level
    66
    Points: 9,694, Level: 66
    Overall activity: 99.9%
    Achievements:
    Overdrive5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 202/5
    Given: 132/2

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    FWIW, a friend in MIA said the Feds were interviewing pilots about airline safety and pilot pushing, especially regarding fuel. Has anyone seen this at other domiciles?
    Ego Credam Ubi Vidi
    I'll believe it when I see it

  3. #3
    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    4,353
    Level
    96
    Points: 25,439, Level: 96
    Overall activity: 73.0%
    Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Frequent Poster
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 569/34
    Given: 589/14

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    I was told there was a fed on jumpseat when approach started they were amber and the Fed did not like it.

  4. #4
    Registered User Divine Wind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Job
    CA
    A/C Flown
    EMB
    Posts
    1,138
    Level
    66
    Points: 9,694, Level: 66
    Overall activity: 99.9%
    Achievements:
    Overdrive5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 202/5
    Given: 132/2

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    I was told there was a fed on jumpseat when approach started they were amber and the Fed did not like it.
    I'd expect so. Many pilots don't like seeing amber fuel gauges, but are afraid to say or do anything. A Fed in the jumpseat has a duty to his job and will do something about it.
    Ego Credam Ubi Vidi
    I'll believe it when I see it

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Company
    DeathStar
    Base
    MIA
    Job
    Drink Coffee, Battle VNAV/FMS
    A/C Flown
    737
    Divorces
    1/2 , still ugly and a sad man.
    Posts
    259
    Level
    44
    Points: 4,854, Level: 44
    Overall activity: 8.0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 24/1
    Given: 22/7

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    self-pres·er·va·tion
    ˈˌself ˌprezərˈvāSHən/Submit
    noun
    the protection of oneself from harm or death, especially regarded as a basic instinct in human beings and animals.

  6. #6
    Registered User Divine Wind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Job
    CA
    A/C Flown
    EMB
    Posts
    1,138
    Level
    66
    Points: 9,694, Level: 66
    Overall activity: 99.9%
    Achievements:
    Overdrive5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 202/5
    Given: 132/2

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Agreed. When the fuel plan isn't working out, discuss a fuel alternate with Dispatch.
    Ego Credam Ubi Vidi
    I'll believe it when I see it

  7. #7
    Super Moderator Cujo665's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Company
    A great one
    Base
    Home Based
    Job
    Pilot
    A/C Flown
    SF340, E145, B767
    Posts
    1,778
    Level
    98
    Points: 27,561, Level: 98
    Overall activity: 32.0%
    Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran25000 Experience PointsSocial
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 369/50
    Given: 75/9

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Wind View Post
    FWIW, a friend in MIA said the Feds were interviewing pilots about airline safety and pilot pushing, especially regarding fuel. Has anyone seen this at other domiciles?

    Have them them call me........
    __________________________________________________ __

  8. #8
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    207
    Level
    39
    Points: 3,824, Level: 39
    Overall activity: 12.0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 10/0
    Given: 0/0

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    Have them them call me........
    What good would that do them?

  9. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    12
    Level
    35
    Points: 3,306, Level: 35
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran1000 Experience Points
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 1/0
    Given: 2/0

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    I was told there was a fed on jumpseat when approach started they were amber and the Fed did not like it.
    I heard the same. In addition, I’ve had one of my own flights and have spoken to a few others in the crew room that have had the same thing happen in the last month at least. I don’t know if their calculations are fudged to look better on paper than is actually feasible or what. But, it’s an uncomfortable feeling. I figure you’re one NY airport go around from becoming an emergency declaration if we are starting approaches in the yellow. By my math, it wouldn’t take more than 300-500 lbs more to keep it green to a landing. You shouldn’t have to call for add fuel every leg. Planned arrival at 1800 and change is pretty tight I think.

  10. #10
    Registered User Divine Wind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Job
    CA
    A/C Flown
    EMB
    Posts
    1,138
    Level
    66
    Points: 9,694, Level: 66
    Overall activity: 99.9%
    Achievements:
    Overdrive5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 202/5
    Given: 132/2

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dvtpilot View Post
    I heard the same. In addition, I’ve had one of my own flights and have spoken to a few others in the crew room that have had the same thing happen in the last month at least. I don’t know if their calculations are fudged to look better on paper than is actually feasible or what. But, it’s an uncomfortable feeling. I figure you’re one NY airport go around from becoming an emergency declaration if we are starting approaches in the yellow. By my math, it wouldn’t take more than 300-500 lbs more to keep it green to a landing. You shouldn’t have to call for add fuel every leg. Planned arrival at 1800 and change is pretty tight I think.
    The MEC has established an ad hoc Fuel Committee. For several reasons it's more than just safety since there are legal and contract issues involved with "Captain Add". The committee needs feedback from the line, so any pilots who have had issues, please forward them to your reps. Include copies of any ASAPs, ASRSs and/or pipelines which were sent.

    Agreed that most of our flights would end (or should end) in an emergency if they had to go around. This FAA InFO 08004 gives some advice: http://lessonslearned.faa.gov/Avianca52/INFO_08004.pdf

    a. The act of using a portion of the reserve fuel assigned to a flight is not, in its self a cause
    to declare a minimum fuel state with the controlling agency. Regulations require reserve fuel to
    enable aircraft to maneuver, due to unforeseen circumstances. Many aircraft safely arrive at their
    destination having used a portion of the fuel designated as reserve. There is no regulatory
    definition as to when, specifically, a pilot must declare “minimum fuel” or a fuel emergency. Air
    carriers typically develop such guidance for their pilots and include it in their General Operations
    Manuals; such guidance generally falls along the following lines:

    Declare “minimum fuel” when, in your best judgment, any additional delay will
    cause you to burn into your reserve fuel.

    • Declare a fuel emergency at the point at which, in your judgment, it is necessary
    for you to proceed directly to the airport at which you intend to land. Declaration
    of a fuel emergency is an explicit statement that priority handling by ATC is
    necessary and expected.
    Ego Credam Ubi Vidi
    I'll believe it when I see it

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •