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Thread: Envoy Flow/Negotiations Update

  1. #21
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    Lol- tell that to Dacuj- Hahahaha. We are all AA according to that d#####

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    Registered User NoOtPilot's Avatar
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    If “Numbers” come, they will come with “fences”, (5 years fence). And you could end up being stuck here another 5 years. For a total of 12 years. Hope AA don’t stop the hiring in the next 5 years, as they park more planes. We all had friends “with numbers”, stuck here for 12 years. And their pay when they flowed was 1st year pay. So senior pilots for bidding at 1st year pay. “C” scale.
    Last edited by NoOtPilot; 04-15-2018 at 02:27 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought View Post
    Seniority numbers. No cost to AA or Envoy.
    It would be a HUGE cost for AA. As stated repeatedly in the past, APA owns their seniority list and even if AAG was inclined to pursue that scheme again, this time in the hope of staffing what soon will be a dissolving businesss model, AA pilots have no interest in bailing out the management team who promised culture change and reneged. The relationship between pilots and management is the same at AA as it is at Envoy.

    I’d stop wasting time pondering a concept with virtually no chance at ever seeing the light of day. I would argue most AA pilots will enjoy watching the Eagle system wither on the vine over the next few years not because of pilots, but because they’ve been shafted one time too many and are fed up with being jerked around. The Eagle system will move into the future with present scope and at the whim of regional captain and first officer availability.

  4. #24
    Registered User DolphinsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    It would be a HUGE cost for AA. As stated repeatedly in the past, APA owns their seniority list and even if AAG was inclined to pursue that scheme again, this time in the hope of staffing what soon will be a dissolving businesss model, AA pilots have no interest in bailing out the management team who promised culture change and reneged. The relationship between pilots and management is the same at AA as it is at Envoy.

    I’d stop wasting time pondering a concept with virtually no chance at ever seeing the light of day. I would argue most AA pilots will enjoy watching the Eagle system wither on the vine over the next few years not because of pilots, but because they’ve been shafted one time too many and are fed up with being jerked around. The Eagle system will move into the future with present scope and at the whim of regional captain and first officer availability.
    APA does not "own" the seniority list. American Airlines does. And thus if AA decides to issue seniority numbers to Envoy pilots, they will do just that.

  5. #25
    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    Apa is not our mec. AA can higher you and assign your seniority at Indoc, in this manner yes you are correct.

    AA cannot give seniority numbers out without hiring you and you going through indoc at aa. Not without apa approval, because apa owns the seniority list, whether you like it or not junior. And apa ain't gonna give **** to any wholly own just because Doug wants to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Apa is not our mec. AA can higher you and assign your seniority at Indoc, in this manner yes you are correct.

    AA cannot give seniority numbers out without hiring you and you going through indoc at aa. Not without apa approval, because apa owns the seniority list, whether you like it or not junior. And apa ain't gonna give **** to any wholly own just because Doug wants to.
    The Broward blowhole is simply blowing more uninformed sewage out of his vent. ONLY pilots HIRED at AA as ACTIVE pilots for AA can exist on the AA pilots seniority list and the ONLY pilots who can BE represented by the APA are not JUST pilots assigned seniority numbers at AA, but are also active pilots at AA. Thus, neither AA nor anyone else can simply unilaterally “issue” AA seniority numbers to non AA/APA pilots who simultaneously exist on another seniority list represented by another union. That is why Letter 3 required mutual agreement by Supplement W in the APA Green Book as well for AA seniority numbers. NO AA pilot can exist on another seniority list and have AA seniority without APA agreement, unless subsequently placed on furlough and any phony furlough scheme that never happened is NOT an end run method for assigning AA seniority for pilots at another airline. Under present contractual requirements, you are hired at AA to actively perform flying at AA and thus become an APA pilot (if voted in) or you are not on the AA pilot seniority list.

    I think it was good for this character to demonstrate his complete misunderstanding of reality by making such a boneheaded post claiming rights and realities that do not exist and it is important for all Envoy pilots to understand that and thus his new, undisputed disinformation platinum status on this forum. My thanks to the flopping flip-flopper once again for his ability to demonstrate his proficiency as a most uninformed imbecile on this issue.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 04-16-2018 at 08:16 AM.

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    I’m sure it’s not a mistake on his part. Heads up hva guys. When you show up to class day 1 make sure that you’ve already validated your flight time with the company if you want the extra bonus. Don’t expect another bonus check once you are an Alpa guy on property.

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    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    Damn f'n right

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    April 20, 2018

    During the MEC meeting that took place this week the Negotiating Committee updated the officers and reps on what talks had been taking place with the Company. The Company has yet to present an official offer with regards to a settlement on the flow through grievances. Your MEC leadership has determined that if an acceptable settlement offer is not presented imminently we will be required to move in a different direction.

    We are also aware that many pilots are becoming anxious with regards to the summer staffing crunch that we seem to face each year. In February the Company approached the Negotiating Committee with a proposal to buy back vacation blocks from pilots at a substantial premium in order to ease their staffing crunch. We received draft language from the Company and we notified the Company that it would be beneficial to our pilots. Unfortunately, the Company has now decided not to sign this agreement. Although the Company has not given any indication of plans to cancel vacation at this time, we recommend that all pilots with vacations over the summer months review the vacation cancellation language in Section 8.K as staffing levels and block hour commitments to American Airlines are constantly changing.

    As the industry evolves it is imperative that Envoy evolve as well. So far, the Company has shown no interest in following the rising industry pay standard, although we advocate for increased economics for our pilots regularly. We also continue to advocate for improved quality of life enhancements by means of work rule changes. While some pilots are nearing their flow through class date, numerous pilots will spend many more years at Envoy. Securing quality of life and economic improvements continues to be a top priority.

    The Negotiating Committee will continue to meet with the Company in an effort to bring positive change for our pilots. We will continue to seek advancements for the pilots at Envoy, and attempt to solve problems and fix morale for the pilots, which we firmly believe will yield a more productive and efficient pilot group for the Company.

    In Unity,

    The Envoy MEC
    ENYMEC@alpa.org

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnS2018 View Post
    April 20, 2018

    During the MEC meeting that took place this week the Negotiating Committee updated the officers and reps on what talks had been taking place with the Company. The Company has yet to present an official offer with regards to a settlement on the flow through grievances. Your MEC leadership has determined that if an acceptable settlement offer is not presented imminently we will be required to move in a different direction.

    We are also aware that many pilots are becoming anxious with regards to the summer staffing crunch that we seem to face each year. In February the Company approached the Negotiating Committee with a proposal to buy back vacation blocks from pilots at a substantial premium in order to ease their staffing crunch. We received draft language from the Company and we notified the Company that it would be beneficial to our pilots. Unfortunately, the Company has now decided not to sign this agreement. Although the Company has not given any indication of plans to cancel vacation at this time, we recommend that all pilots with vacations over the summer months review the vacation cancellation language in Section 8.K as staffing levels and block hour commitments to American Airlines are constantly changing.

    As the industry evolves it is imperative that Envoy evolve as well. So far, the Company has shown no interest in following the rising industry pay standard, although we advocate for increased economics for our pilots regularly. We also continue to advocate for improved quality of life enhancements by means of work rule changes. While some pilots are nearing their flow through class date, numerous pilots will spend many more years at Envoy. Securing quality of life and economic improvements continues to be a top priority.

    The Negotiating Committee will continue to meet with the Company in an effort to bring positive change for our pilots. We will continue to seek advancements for the pilots at Envoy, and attempt to solve problems and fix morale for the pilots, which we firmly believe will yield a more productive and efficient pilot group for the Company.

    In Unity,

    The Envoy MEC
    ENYMEC@alpa.org
    According to flipper, all is well regarding flow and Summer vacations, so this must be fake news.

  11. #31
    Super Moderator Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    APA does not "own" the seniority list. American Airlines does. And thus if AA decides to issue seniority numbers to Envoy pilots, they will do just that.
    Sure, go with that. They have two seniority numbers. One for company date of hire, one for occupation when you’re an active AA pilot. It’s why the old agreement for seniority numbers required APA approval.... but I wouldn’t expect you to know factual history.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    Sure, go with that. They have two seniority numbers. One for company date of hire, one for occupation when you’re an active AA pilot. It’s why the old agreement for seniority numbers required APA approval.... but I wouldn’t expect you to know factual history.
    He’s got little choice but to go with that as to confront reality is obviously too psychologically traumatic.

  13. #33
    Registered User Divine Wind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    APA does not "own" the seniority list. American Airlines does. And thus if AA decides to issue seniority numbers to Envoy pilots, they will do just that.
    That's not the way I understand it. APA is a union with a seniority system. They have a contract with AAG. AAG must hire in accordance with that contract just as Envoy management must abide by the seniority rules in our contract. Usually mostly Section 13, but there are references of seniority strewn throughout our contract. While the company is free to hire nor not hire pilots as they see fit, once they do, the assignment of seniority is per contract.

    Does anyone have a copy of the Green Book?
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    I'll believe it when I see it

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