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Thread: Envoy Flow/Negotiations Update

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    Envoy Flow/Negotiations Update


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    Chairman's Update on Flow Settlement/Negotiations



    Fellow Envoy Pilots Ė



    The Negotiating Committee has been meeting with Envoy management consistently since early January attempting to find resolution to our disagreements on the protected pilot flow through, and I'd like to provide this update as we approach our MEC meeting next Monday. Communicating progress, or lack thereof, to the pilot group is imperative, as we represent your voice. As always, I urge you to share your concerns to the entire MEC team but especially to your elected representatives, who vote on potential changes to the contract and give the officers and negotiating committee direction. We rely on your input; your involvement is essential to the process.

    The possibility of resolving the outstanding flow through grievances was originally introduced before the holidays, however earnest negotiations only began in January. Our interest in resolving the flow through grievances lies in securing additional career opportunities for pilots now rather than waiting for the arbitration process to unfold to a delayed and uncertain outcome. Both AA and Envoy also have an interest in eliminating the unknown outcome of arbitration.

    The company agreed to negotiate a settlement for the flow through grievances, but only if other pieces of business that the company wanted were also included in a package deal. ALPA agreed to consider these items if pilot interests could be protected and/or advanced.

    Over the months, the number of items being discussed morphed. The enhancements to flow through language also morphed. The package grew, then shrank. The process repeated. In February the appointed negotiators for ALPA and the Company came to an agreement that would have accelerated flow through for almost all Envoy pilots, increased pay for upgrading captains, resolved several unrelated disagreements, and provided Envoy a pathway to sustainable staffing.

    However, we were told that when AA was presented with the package they indicated that they couldn't accept it. This was (and is) troubling since AA's team has repeatedly indicated that Envoy determines if less than the maximum prescribed amount will flow, while Envoy's team say it is AA who controls the flow through numbers. Nevertheless, negotiators for both Envoy and ALPA quickly set about massaging a smaller package that AA would find acceptable. This smaller package was essentially agreed to by Envoy and ALPA in early March however, as of this writing many weeks later, no answer from AA has reached ALPA.

    It's the opinion of the MEC leadership that a negotiated settlement is the best course forward for all parties, however time continues to be of the essence. The basic precepts of the deal have been in place for months, yet we still find ourselves without resolution. Each month that there isn't an agreement our pilots are harmed, and each month increases the size of the remedy necessary to settle the disagreement.

    It was my sincere hope that we would enter the MEC meeting with a flow through settlement agreement done, and that we would be discussing progress on other items of interest and necessity to Envoy pilots. Instead we will commence the MEC meeting with nothing of substance from the Company with regards to flow through.

    AA leadership says they want a good relationship with labor and that they must "validate the trust." Envoy pilots are future AA mainline pilots and AA management will have a harder, more expensive time earning that trust if they continue to deploy the bait and switch, obfuscation, and dilatory tactics to which we are presently being subjected here at Envoy.

    Your ALPA team will continue to advocate for you and press for a great work environment. If you'd like to comment on this process please reach out to us atenyofficers@alpa.org, enync@alpa.org, and enyreps@alpa.org. This weekend the MEC team will be travelling to Chicago and preparing for the meeting so please forgive any lack of immediate, personal response to your communications but rest assured that every email is reviewed.

    As always, members in good standing are welcome to attend and you will find an invitation with time and location in yesterday's email newsblast as well as reminders in the coming days.



    I look forward to seeing you there.



    In Unity,

    Sam Pool

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    Same old song, nothing new here, the company playing ALPA like little kids. Watch how the Union at the end is going to do what the company wants. Seen this before...and this time is your turn to see it again. Company knows when the flow will stop...Union has no clue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    Same old song, nothing new here, the company playing ALPA like little kids. Watch how the Union at the end is going to do what the company wants. Seen this before...and this time is your turn to see it again. Company knows when the flow will stop...Union has no clue.

    What guarantee do we get that the flow will continue? NONE.....

    That is why the company want their get, and trust me the union will give, and then they will stop the flow and we will all be screwed. And the company will be laughing to the bank again.

    Seen this before.....been there, done that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnS2018 View Post
    Chairman's Update on Flow Settlement/Negotiations



    Fellow Envoy Pilots –



    The Negotiating Committee has been meeting with Envoy management consistently since early January attempting to find resolution to our disagreements on the protected pilot flow through, and I'd like to provide this update as we approach our MEC meeting next Monday. Communicating progress, or lack thereof, to the pilot group is imperative, as we represent your voice. As always, I urge you to share your concerns to the entire MEC team but especially to your elected representatives, who vote on potential changes to the contract and give the officers and negotiating committee direction. We rely on your input; your involvement is essential to the process.

    The possibility of resolving the outstanding flow through grievances was originally introduced before the holidays, however earnest negotiations only began in January. Our interest in resolving the flow through grievances lies in securing additional career opportunities for pilots now rather than waiting for the arbitration process to unfold to a delayed and uncertain outcome. Both AA and Envoy also have an interest in eliminating the unknown outcome of arbitration.

    The company agreed to negotiate a settlement for the flow through grievances, but only if other pieces of business that the company wanted were also included in a package deal. ALPA agreed to consider these items if pilot interests could be protected and/or advanced.

    Over the months, the number of items being discussed morphed. The enhancements to flow through language also morphed. The package grew, then shrank. The process repeated. In February the appointed negotiators for ALPA and the Company came to an agreement that would have accelerated flow through for almost all Envoy pilots, increased pay for upgrading captains, resolved several unrelated disagreements, and provided Envoy a pathway to sustainable staffing.

    However, we were told that when AA was presented with the package they indicated that they couldn't accept it. This was (and is) troubling since AA's team has repeatedly indicated that Envoy determines if less than the maximum prescribed amount will flow, while Envoy's team say it is AA who controls the flow through numbers. Nevertheless, negotiators for both Envoy and ALPA quickly set about massaging a smaller package that AA would find acceptable. This smaller package was essentially agreed to by Envoy and ALPA in early March however, as of this writing many weeks later, no answer from AA has reached ALPA.

    It's the opinion of the MEC leadership that a negotiated settlement is the best course forward for all parties, however time continues to be of the essence. The basic precepts of the deal have been in place for months, yet we still find ourselves without resolution. Each month that there isn't an agreement our pilots are harmed, and each month increases the size of the remedy necessary to settle the disagreement.

    It was my sincere hope that we would enter the MEC meeting with a flow through settlement agreement done, and that we would be discussing progress on other items of interest and necessity to Envoy pilots. Instead we will commence the MEC meeting with nothing of substance from the Company with regards to flow through.

    AA leadership says they want a good relationship with labor and that they must "validate the trust." Envoy pilots are future AA mainline pilots and AA management will have a harder, more expensive time earning that trust if they continue to deploy the bait and switch, obfuscation, and dilatory tactics to which we are presently being subjected here at Envoy.

    Your ALPA team will continue to advocate for you and press for a great work environment. If you'd like to comment on this process please reach out to us atenyofficers@alpa.org, enync@alpa.org, and enyreps@alpa.org. This weekend the MEC team will be travelling to Chicago and preparing for the meeting so please forgive any lack of immediate, personal response to your communications but rest assured that every email is reviewed.

    As always, members in good standing are welcome to attend and you will find an invitation with time and location in yesterday's email newsblast as well as reminders in the coming days.



    I look forward to seeing you there.



    In Unity,

    Sam Pool
    “Validating trust” is nothing more then an empty buzzword nowadays. Pilots have been hearing that at AA for several years with similar results. Be interesting to know just what ALPA is looking for. At any rate, IMO nothing they offer will change the situation or alter the reality that the golden goose of plentiful regional pilots is all but dead and they killed it.

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    Imagine for one minute if the US attacks a country like Syria...and imagine what would happened if fuel prices go up. Glad none of this would never take place.

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    Hey Sam and bozo negotiating committee, wantto explain how a current captain benefits from the following "increased pay for upgrading captains, ", or should we just chalk it up to more bull shi+ weak negotiating once again.

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    Edit.
    deleted.
    Last edited by Griff312; 04-13-2018 at 11:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Hey Sam and bozo negotiating committee, wantto explain how a current captain benefits from the following "increased pay for upgrading captains, ", or should we just chalk it up to more bull shi+ weak negotiating once again.
    😂😂Sam flowing in Sept. bozo in about 1 1/2 years. Whatever it takes not to rock their flow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    😂😂Sam flowing in Sept. bozo in about 1 1/2 years. Whatever it takes not to rock their flow.
    He's flowing this September, not next September.

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    Seniority numbers. No cost to AA or Envoy.

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    They are owned by apa not aa

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    Piedmont just announced 44K sign on bonus for DECs. Passing us by a grand. Envoy 43K and LGA or Piedmont 44K and PHL?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiz5422 View Post
    Piedmont just announced 44K sign on bonus for DECs. Passing us by a grand. Envoy 43K and LGA or Piedmont 44K and PHL?
    A 1st year FO here makes more than a 1st year FO at Mainline.😂😂😂
    ďHouston we have a problem.Ē

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiz5422 View Post
    Piedmont just announced 44K sign on bonus for DECs. Passing us by a grand. Envoy 43K and LGA or Piedmont 44K and PHL?
    Envoy pays a up to $45,100

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    Quote Originally Posted by check_six View Post
    Envoy pays a up to $45,100
    Tell me, douchey recruiter, what gimmick is next? Rebranding to Platinum aviators and offering positive space commutes?

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    How about flow according to the contract (letís be real, you know and I know itís half of ever class or 25 which ever is higher) and maybe better pay rates for ca.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkvisual View Post
    How about flow according to the contract (letís be real, you know and I know itís half of ever class or 25 which ever is higher) and maybe better pay rates for ca.
    I've asked him why they are advertising "5 year flow" on the Envoy recruiting website. Of course no answer. More recruiting lies.

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    I messaged the Union ďleadersĒ and told them if (pipe dream) they could get us ACTUAL NUMBERS at AA/APA agreement/ the company could get pretty much anything they ask for and more. And they laughed. Laughed at trying or whatever it may be.

    My thoughts: sure at some point they will probably declare a hardship and say we canít flow- bad idea as the airline would come to halt for sure- but if they did....With actual AA numbers at a set date... itís then; ok so I missed my flow date (again)... at least I have an aA number and accrue seniority from that said date. Itís better than NOT having it. And in return/ letís see what they say. The question is.... keeping our current quality of life and rules.... what would you sacrifice for that? Is also not hard for AA to do or figure out. Letís say 50 per new hire class. They have the schedule of classes. We get (for now) 25 per month (should be class).. but they know the classes. Set aside the next say 5000 numbers and pull out the ole excel spreadsheet again ... half of this class is assigned to envoy/psa/pdt... then the other half is set aside for off street / their military buddies etc etc.. do that for each class- reserve the numbers. Not a hard thing to do- eagle gets theirs... APA/aa get their guys too. But itís politics and ďcomplicatedĒ

    What hardships are you willing to endure for a better quality of life?? The me me me generation of millennial is in full swing- and itís only going to get worse. Those of us in the 2007-2011 group got screwed the hardest with ďcaptain retention and fo bonusesĒ etc etc- and we are still here. Enduring.

    What will it take to get actual AA numbers? Itís not a pipe dream- it has happened before- it should happen again. Itís not a hard get. You want people flocking from the streets for guaranteed seniority start date at a major- thatís what itís going to take. Keep offering 100k plus to new hires- it wonít solve the problem- nor will a flow carrot. But not one else is offering numbers- start it again and watch the HVA and street hire captains show up.
    Last edited by EagleFlight2369; 04-15-2018 at 01:20 PM.

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    Apa controls and owns the seniority list at aa. Apa is not our mec which sells out seniority for peanuts.
    What do you think apa will want for you to get an aa number which series seniority and all that goes with

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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleFlight2369 View Post
    I messaged the Union ďleadersĒ and told them if (pipe dream) they could get us ACTUAL NUMBERS at AA/APA agreement/ the company could get pretty much anything they ask for and more. And they laughed. Laughed at trying or whatever it may be.

    My thoughts: sure at some point they will probably declare a hardship and say we canít flow- bad idea as the airline would come to halt for sure- but if they did....With actual AA numbers at a set date... itís then; ok so I missed my flow date (again)... at least I have an aA number and accrue seniority from that said date. Itís better than NOT having it. And in return/ letís see what they say. The question is.... keeping our current quality of life and rules.... what would you sacrifice for that? Is also not hard for AA to do or figure out. Letís say 50 per new hire class. They have the schedule of classes. We get (for now) 25 per month (should be class).. but they know the classes. Set aside the next say 5000 numbers and pull out the ole excel spreadsheet again ... half of this class is assigned to envoy/psa/pdt... then the other half is set aside for off street / their military buddies etc etc.. do that for each class- reserve the numbers. Not a hard thing to do- eagle gets theirs... APA/aa get their guys too. But itís politics and ďcomplicatedĒ

    What hardships are you willing to endure for a better quality of life?? The me me me generation of millennial is in full swing- and itís only going to get worse. Those of us in the 2007-2011 group got screwed the hardest with ďcaptain retention and fo bonusesĒ etc etc- and we are still here. Enduring.

    What will it take to get actual AA numbers? Itís not a pipe dream- it has happened before- it should happen again. Itís not a hard get. You want people flocking from the streets for guaranteed seniority start date at a major- thatís what itís going to take. Keep offering 100k plus to new hires- it wonít solve the problem- nor will a flow carrot. But not one else is offering numbers- start it again and watch the HVA and street hire captains show up.
    It has happened before. But...APA has stated that they will never again allow seniority numbers to be given out to anyone not currently on property at AA.

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