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Thread: Trans States Airlines 90k FO package

  1. #21
    Registered User Dacuj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    How about last years attrition statistics to include pilots who resigned for other employment (non flow), general resignations and training washouts ? It would be helpful to quantify all this hiring to get a better perspective on its impact and value.

    You know you have that info and it’s not something secret.
    OK, let's start with one item here. Training washouts. It's no secret that the 1500 hour rule and the resulting 117 constraints have seriously hampered management's efforts to run the airline successfully. As you know, many in the new hire category come in with low experience levels. As an example, one guy came in with nothing but 172 time as he flew traffic watch for the majority of his hours leading up to the Envoy offer and subsequent ATP sponsored program. The guy made it through but with extra sims and help. That's to be expected in today's environment. One way this is being addressed is the Envoy sponsorship of ATP candidates paying their entire cost of the ATP-CTP course and tests. In the example above, the candidate made it through successfully. This isn't always the case although the ATP-CTP course has greatly helped new hire candidates in the 121 environment in the recent past.

    Resignations. Sure, you are always going to have attrition. I can't fully grasp why with the flow as it stands but yes, some attrition does happen in all sections of the list. Typically it's the lower half of the list but experienced Captain's at times get offers from Delta and United and have chosen that path as it suits them. Even Southwest has attrition. Many leave there for the legacies.

    The hiring going on now is supporting massive growth on the Envoy side. It's no secret that Envoy wants everything that AA can throw at them. This means a 3000+ seniority list. Thus the reason for the large hiring numbers. Look at the 140s/145s that have come back. We are still flying the CRJ's. And new 175's continue to show up. 54 is the total number. For now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    What can I answer for you?
    1.When can a new hire, hired TODAY expect to flow base off current flow numbers and current contractual flow agreement?

    2. Why is the company metering the flow? We all know that GROWTH isn't "operational necessity"

    3. Please explain how envoys current QOL of a reserve/line pilot is better the a similar pilot at endeavor, skywest etc?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    OK, let's start with one item here. Training washouts. It's no secret that the 1500 hour rule and the resulting 117 constraints have seriously hampered management's efforts to run the airline successfully. As you know, many in the new hire category come in with low experience levels. As an example, one guy came in with nothing but 172 time as he flew traffic watch for the majority of his hours leading up to the Envoy offer and subsequent ATP sponsored program. The guy made it through but with extra sims and help. That's to be expected in today's environment. One way this is being addressed is the Envoy sponsorship of ATP candidates paying their entire cost of the ATP-CTP course and tests. In the example above, the candidate made it through successfully. This isn't always the case although the ATP-CTP course has greatly helped new hire candidates in the 121 environment in the recent past.

    Resignations. Sure, you are always going to have attrition. I can't fully grasp why with the flow as it stands but yes, some attrition does happen in all sections of the list. Typically it's the lower half of the list but experienced Captain's at times get offers from Delta and United and have chosen that path as it suits them. Even Southwest has attrition. Many leave there for the legacies.

    The hiring going on now is supporting massive growth on the Envoy side. It's no secret that Envoy wants everything that AA can throw at them. This means a 3000+ seniority list. Thus the reason for the large hiring numbers. Look at the 140s/145s that have come back. We are still flying the CRJ's. And new 175's continue to show up. 54 is the total number. For now.
    He asked for statistics yet you ramble on and on.....figures. Envoy management 101.....talk bullsh!t until everyone tunes you out, at times I believe most managers here really aren't competent and couldn't even run an empty daycare.

  4. #24
    Registered User Dacuj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiz5422 View Post
    1.When can a new hire, hired TODAY expect to flow base off current flow numbers and current contractual flow agreement?

    2. Why is the company metering the flow? We all know that GROWTH isn't "operational necessity"

    3. Please explain how envoys current QOL of a reserve/line pilot is better the a similar pilot at endeavor, skywest etc?
    Operational necessity - The amount of aircraft, ground equipment, personnel, etc. needed to support the operation. Simple math. Let's just say 10 pilots per plane to keep it even. 3,000 pilots in that case would equal 300 aircraft. Add to that the other variables above and you have your answer right here. Operational necessity. Envoy has to keep operating. The flow is metered yes, for now. The operation has to be supported. It's worth noting that your own union has calculated the flow off min flow numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    It's worth noting that your own union has calculated the flow off min flow numbers.
    Has nothing to do why it is metered. They are at least trying to give us low value aviator a realistic expectation.

    Again your answered have no real numbers or substance just fluff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    OK, let's start with one item here. Training washouts. It's no secret that the 1500 hour rule and the resulting 117 constraints have seriously hampered management's efforts to run the airline successfully. As you know, many in the new hire category come in with low experience levels. As an example, one guy came in with nothing but 172 time as he flew traffic watch for the majority of his hours leading up to the Envoy offer and subsequent ATP sponsored program. The guy made it through but with extra sims and help. That's to be expected in today's environment. One way this is being addressed is the Envoy sponsorship of ATP candidates paying their entire cost of the ATP-CTP course and tests. In the example above, the candidate made it through successfully. This isn't always the case although the ATP-CTP course has greatly helped new hire candidates in the 121 environment in the recent past.
    What does this do for Envoy's Qualified Captain situation going forward ? Fine (but meaningless) response as it once again fails to contain specific metrics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Resignations. Sure, you are always going to have attrition. I can't fully grasp why with the flow as it stands but yes, some attrition does happen in all sections of the list. Typically it's the lower half of the list but experienced Captain's at times get offers from Delta and United and have chosen that path as it suits them. Even Southwest has attrition. Many leave there for the legacies.
    A little better acknowledgement, but STILL devoid of specific numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    The hiring going on now is supporting massive growth on the Envoy side. It's no secret that Envoy wants everything that AA can throw at them. This means a 3000+ seniority list. Thus the reason for the large hiring numbers. Look at the 140s/145s that have come back. We are still flying the CRJ's. And new 175's continue to show up. 54 is the total number. For now.
    Again, a "3000+ seniority list" is a double-edged sword. Such a ravenous appetite of growth requires a massive resource to feed it and I don't see that resource feeding it for any length of time. But we are again back to the fact you have provided ZERO information to quantify whether Envoy is really "growing" in its pilot cadre or simply placing an equal number of jars on one end of the shelf to replace those that fall off the other end.

    Specific numbers. please.

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    Dacuj please answer 1 and 3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    What can I answer for you?

    Did you order the code red?

  9. #29
    Registered User schmuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Operational necessity - The amount of aircraft, ground equipment, personnel, etc. needed to support the operation. Simple math. Let's just say 10 pilots per plane to keep it even. 3,000 pilots in that case would equal 300 aircraft. Add to that the other variables above and you have your answer right here. Operational necessity. Envoy has to keep operating. The flow is metered yes, for now. The operation has to be supported. It's worth noting that your own union has calculated the flow off min flow numbers.
    Very true. And with continued metering the most junior guy hired in the 1/15/18 new hire class is looking at a 9 year and 2 month flow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chemtrailer View Post
    Did you order the code red?
    No, but he does subscribe to “code fled” when confronted with questions like those in this thread. Specifically, he flees for cover anytime questions or facts inconsistent with his anti-pilot agenda are brought to the surface. It’s the hallmark protective safe haven of the exposed grifter.

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    So, Dacuj’s answer to metering, QOL issues, and constant CBA violations by management is “operational necessity”.
    What a weapons grade douche nozzle.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirsnacksalot View Post
    So, Dacuj’s answer to metering, QOL issues, and constant CBA violations by management is “operational necessity”.
    What a weapons grade douche nozzle.
    Why would operational necessity be necessary as an excuse for anything at a airline supposedly firing on all cylinders and cruising smoothly into the future with no chance of breakdown ? But, if it IS necessary as the DMG obviously believes it is which validates two separate realities, what will be the excuse when Envoy DOES breakdown ?

    That could be a VERY ugly reality for those who aren’t in the DMG’s fantasyland. In such a situation, I can only wonder at what point management plays the Force Majeure card regarding the flow.

  13. #33
    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    i believe we mentioned all this to dacuj and company last year and the response was never,
    Sir, can I have another.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
    Very true. And with continued metering the most junior guy hired in the 1/15/18 new hire class is looking at a 9 year and 2 month flow.
    How you do this math? Are you factoring attrition to other airlines?
    That will prevent reaching the 3,000 pilots and that will prolong operational necessity. It will be interesting to see the formula.

    Thanks.
    I always tell the truth. Even when I lie.

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