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Thread: Trans States Airlines 90k FO package

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    Trans States Airlines 90k FO package


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    https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...first-officers

    January 24, 2018
    By David Tulis

    The Jan. 12 announcement brings total first-year compensation for new-hire first officers to approximately $86,000. Pilots with airline experience, qualified to fly as a first officer or as a captain, ďcan expect a minimum year one compensation package of up to $90,000,Ē the news release noted.

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    That's more money than many regional captains.

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    Look how much money they are wasting by not having a flow.
    😎

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    I wonder how much of that is their actual salary? TSA has been known in the past to cite per diem, benefits, hotels, etc...as part of their compensation.

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    They do include benefits and hotels and a crazy high amount of per diem in that calculation

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    Iím sure itís a fine print deal.

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    The bigger question is how pilots at TSA handle a massive pay cut in year 2. Pilot turnover will be strong as once the ca$h disappears and all that’s left is the abuse, pilots will flee. As I have stated previously, this is simply yet another indication of the increasing desperate straits regionals are in. Those without a flow carrot are panicking more and sooner then those with flows, but it’s only a matter of time when flow or no flow, the well is almost dry and it will be sooner rather then later for Envoy too. Envoy’s laughable near decade path to AA won’t keep as many as hoped for significant periods of time and Envoy is destined for panic themselves. Think about it...........soon regionals will literally become the most expensive operations in the industry which is exactly opposite their intended purpose. Soon they will also fall apart in reliability as various management’s lose control of their operations.

    Blame the legacy managements who turned this profession into dog****. Delta has figured it out though and will be proven far more resilient considering their focus and lack of debt. The mainline CS series will be a United/American RJ killer and United will quickly adapt, but suffer somewhat. AA sadly appears destined to continue to embrace the botched failures of the past and is set up to screw itself once again far worse then Delta or United. Considering their debt, it could be a very bad miscalculation even if they recognize it as they’ll be unprepared to get the correct aircraft for mainline or secure agreement from mainline pilots for any cooperation absent massive pilot contact capitulations flipping out both Wall Street and their BOD. Kicking the can has worked well for AA, but that strategy is soon to run its course and it looks like they’ve kicked that can too long and too far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    The bigger question is how pilots at TSA handle a massive pay cut in year 2. Pilot turnover will be strong as once the ca$h disappears and all that’s left is the abuse, pilots will flee. As I have stated previously, this is simply yet another indication of the increasing desperate straits regionals are in. Those without a flow carrot are panicking more and sooner then those with flows, but it’s only a matter of time when flow or no flow, the well is almost dry and it will be sooner rather then later for Envoy too. Envoy’s laughable near decade path to AA won’t keep as many as hoped for significant periods of time and Envoy is destined for panic themselves. Think about it...........soon regionals will literally become the most expensive operations in the industry which is exactly opposite their intended purpose. Soon they will also fall apart in reliability as various management’s lose control of their operations.

    Blame the legacy managements who turned this profession into dog****. Delta has figured it out though and will be proven far more resilient considering their focus and lack of debt. The mainline CS series will be a United/American RJ killer and United will quickly adapt, but suffer somewhat. AA sadly appears destined to continue to embrace the botched failures of the past and is set up to screw itself once again far worse then Delta or United. Considering their debt, it could be a very bad miscalculation even if they recognize it as they’ll be unprepared to get the correct aircraft for mainline or secure agreement from mainline pilots for any cooperation absent massive pilot contact capitulations flipping out both Wall Street and their BOD. Kicking the can has worked well for AA, but that strategy is soon to run its course and it looks like they’ve kicked that can too long and too far.
    Once again you've typed up something that apparently you sat around all day and thought about. Along with some plagiarism and a dash of truth mixed in with a whole lot of conjecture, forecasts and outright lies, we have to read yet another manifesto-ish rant about something you've been on record predicting for YEARS.

    There are a lot of things you don't know about. Management on both sides, Envoy and AA, collaborate on a routine basis and they aren't half as stupid as you make them out to be. There are forecast models for all types of scenarios and the #1 goal is shareholder value and profit. It's pretty evident when you read the quarterly earnings report that AA is doing very well. You talk about Delta being the leader industrywide. Delta doesn't even have flow. AAG pioneered that and thus has the most attractive regional system in the business with Envoy topping all three by leaps and bounds. Let me say that again. Delta DOES NOT have a flow with any regional. None. Zip, zero and nada.

    If you had it to do over again starting today, what would you choose? A non flow regional or one that has a no interview/no medical flow to the biggest airline in the world. I'm sure you'll have some BS diatribe about how there's no way you would get near Envoy. Well, let's be honest on both sides of the coin. Envoy would not hire you today. I think you got lucky by getting hired by Chapparal or some other fly by night operator that Eagle eventually scooped up for the assets, got rid of the dead weight and junk and merged it into American.

    Why is it that you care so much about Envoy? If you are really still flying around at AA or have finally retired out, I don't care. There has to be something wrong pyschologically for you to preach your hate and vitriol for almost 10 years now with the last 5 being on the verge of seething hatred. Think about it. You should drop the computer and go golfing instead of hanging around here preaching to a 10% crowd of losers. I say that tongue in cheek as we know 90% of Envoy pilots are on the up and up and don't blast out BS in the forums.

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    Just wondering, how long would it take delta to create a flow? And isnít flow only a useful tool when regionals even exist in a size large enough to feed their host?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Once again you've typed up something that apparently you sat around all day and thought about. Along with some plagiarism and a dash of truth mixed in with a whole lot of conjecture, forecasts and outright lies, we have to read yet another manifesto-ish rant about something you've been on record predicting for YEARS.

    There are a lot of things you don't know about. Management on both sides, Envoy and AA, collaborate on a routine basis and they aren't half as stupid as you make them out to be. There are forecast models for all types of scenarios and the #1 goal is shareholder value and profit. It's pretty evident when you read the quarterly earnings report that AA is doing very well. You talk about Delta being the leader industrywide. Delta doesn't even have flow. AAG pioneered that and thus has the most attractive regional system in the business with Envoy topping all three by leaps and bounds. Let me say that again. Delta DOES NOT have a flow with any regional. None. Zip, zero and nada.

    If you had it to do over again starting today, what would you choose? A non flow regional or one that has a no interview/no medical flow to the biggest airline in the world. I'm sure you'll have some BS diatribe about how there's no way you would get near Envoy. Well, let's be honest on both sides of the coin. Envoy would not hire you today. I think you got lucky by getting hired by Chapparal or some other fly by night operator that Eagle eventually scooped up for the assets, got rid of the dead weight and junk and merged it into American.

    Why is it that you care so much about Envoy? If you are really still flying around at AA or have finally retired out, I don't care. There has to be something wrong pyschologically for you to preach your hate and vitriol for almost 10 years now with the last 5 being on the verge of seething hatred. Think about it. You should drop the computer and go golfing instead of hanging around here preaching to a 10% crowd of losers. I say that tongue in cheek as we know 90% of Envoy pilots are on the up and up and don't blast out BS in the forums.
    More silliness from the hopelessly demented. Your parroting of the obvious mixed with your own myopic bias won’t change the future realities regionals face including Envoy. It’s obvious “shareholder value” is top priority as that’s standard for most all Corporations. That won’t change the fact that regionals are running out of pilots FAST. $65-90,000 first year pay proves that. Of course, are they investing in the rest of the pilots or just throwing money in the only direction necessary to kick the can ?

    Yup........it’s the latter. Delta doesn’t have flow, but they don’t have a regional obsession like AA and will be better positioned in the future because of it. United too. Don’t like my opinion ? Suck an egg. I laugh at your usual empty attacks on me as that’s your only option left. BTW, it’s not just me “preaching to the 10% of losers” (your words) here, but you too, Mr. Pot. If only anyone paid attention to your nonsense.......at least as anything valid. The flow won’t save Envoy and they’ll need another “scenario”. Problem is, the only ones workable won’t increase shareholder value, only weaken it. As for hiring at Envoy, you prove perfectly how much psychiatric testing is needed in the airline industry and poor AA will be worse off if one day they must inherit you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robsquatch View Post
    Just wondering, how long would it take delta to create a flow? And isn’t flow only a useful tool when regionals even exist in a size large enough to feed their host?
    If and when they need one, they can do it within weeks. The other regionals are paying (and treating) better across the board and soon poaching will become a trickle. The “street” be it Colleges or true street pilots will only provide a fraction of the regional pilots available. Most of those pilots will need 18 months to get 1000 PIC in 121 and that will be a major choke point for regionals on top of 1500 hour pilots. Something has to give and eventually will despite what Pinocchio says here.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 01-28-2018 at 11:13 PM.

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    I would rather have pay increases. Hard to cash "flow" with than bank. My student loans need to be paid now, not 9 years from now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitch4Airspeed View Post
    I would rather have pay increases. Hard to cash "flow" with than bank. My student loans need to be paid now, not 9 years from now.
    I think that will be one of the drivers in the future for pilots to move on from Envoy before they flow, that being financial. The sham new-hire bribes are just that and not indicative of an adapting industry, only more can kicking in the hope of continuing the same error of the past. That scenario won’t hold out forever. That and in Envoy’s case, the future minimum flow rate will be only 180 pilots/year IIRC. If only 6% of Envoy’s supposed future pilot group is flowing annually, many will take other offers. Pinocchio spins the article on the other thread as AAG doing well, but read the headline and note the year-over-year decline in revenue. Expanding competition which AAG is unlikely to match by virtue of mainlines inability to train pilots fast enough to match attrition or secure more group II or group I jets and Eagle’s likelihood of falling short in their feed abilities by pilot shortages, especially Captains and Scope which has zero chance of relaxation may further weaken AAG revenue below others at an inopportune time. Tough to pay off debt with declining revenues.

    If AAG gets into such a catch-22 stall buffet and then a major geopolitical, global or industry economic conundrum puts the airline industry into one of its inevitable downturns which is now overdue, AA and Eagle could be in real trouble and they risk departing controlled flight. Delta and United will be hedging their bets with more new group I and older Group II mainline aircraft to keep revenues up, debt less and flexibility to trim older mainline aircraft in any downturn. In a downturn, AA’s new mainline fleet with its associated debt jones will have to keep working and their massive regional system which mainline depends on can’t be trimmed because that strangles too much connecting revenue that cannot be replaced by mainline, yet they will have a serious pilot problem and will have no choice BUT to contract hurting the wrong source of revenue. Since AA can’t secure more jets to replace regional flying like the others are doing now and/or soon will by waiting too long and being too late to the party and can’t increase regional unit capacity to a degree necessary because of Scope and pilots, AAG will become backwards in ability to either match capacity growth in good times or contract in the right ways in a downturn and end up in yet another clumsy two-step looking like the tanglefoot at the dance again and that’s not good with monster debt anchoring you down.

    Again, my advice beyond planning your own financial protections is to also be better students of history by examining the present industry chess board to also be better planners in your career moves. IMO, if your primary game plan is standing around essentially in a state of career paralysis with your fingers crossed that a 9-year promise will pan out far in the distance flawlessly as the DMG snake oil salesman claim, that’s a very risky game plan. Look at others who did the same thing on past AA flows and learn from their choices whether that risk is acceptable to you.

    Caveat Emptor.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 01-29-2018 at 09:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    That will be one of the drivers in the future for pilots to move on from Envoy before they flow, that being financial. The sham new-hire bribes are just that and not indicative of an adapting industry, only more can kicking in the hope of continuing the same error of the past. That scenario won’t hold out forever. That and in Envoy’s case, the future minimum flow rate will be only 180 pilots/year IIRC. If only 6% of Envoy’s supposed future pilot group is flowing annually, many will take other offers. Pinocchio spins the article on the other thread as AAG doing well, but read the headline and note the year-over-year decline in revenue. Expanding competition which AAG is unlikely to match by virtue of mainlines inability to train pilots fast enough to match attrition or secure more group II or group I jets and Eagle’s likelihood of falling short in their feed abilities by pilot shortages, especially Captains and Scope which has zero chance of relaxation may further weaken AAG revenue below others at an inopportune time. Tough to pay off debt with declining revenues.

    If AAG gets into such a catch-22 stall buffet and then a major geopolitical, global or industry economic conundrum puts the airline industry into one of its inevitable downturns which is now overdue, AA and Eagle could be in real trouble and they risk departing controlled flight. Delta and United will be hedging their bets with more new group I and older Group II mainline aircraft to keep revenues up, debt less and flexibility to trim older mainline aircraft in any downturn. In a downturn, AA’s new fleet will have to keep working and their regional system can’t be trimmed because that strangles connecting revenue, yet they will have a pilot problem. Since AA can’t secure more jets to replace regional flying like the others are doing now and soon will and can’t increase regional unit capacity to a degree necessary because of Scope and pilots, they will become backwards in abilities to either match capacity growth in good times or contract in the right ways in a downturn and end up in yet another clumsy two-step looking like the tanglefoot at the dance again and that’s not good with monster debt anchoring you down.

    Again, my advice beyond planning your own financial protections is to also be better students of history and examine the present industry chess board to also be better planners in your career moves. IMO, if your primary game plan is standing around essentially in a state of career paralysis with your fingers crossed a 9-year promise will pan out far in the distance, that’s a very risky game plan. Look at others who did the same thing on past AA flows and learn from their choices whether that risk is acceptable to you.

    Caveat Emptor.
    OMG. More Caveat Emptor BS along with heavy euphemisms on AA departing controlled flight. From your boxed into the corner viewpoint, you see AA/Envoy management as a bunch of feckless idiots flapping their arms up and down, going to long lunches, leaving early each day and nowhere to be found on Friday's.

    Let me assure you that the picture you paint is far from the truth. I have personally witnessed and been a part of meetings going into late evening in Envoy's HQ alone. And I do know that the same is happening over at AA HQ as well. Believe me, the 30,000 foot view is analyzed and re-analyzed and there are plans in place to increase the rate of new hires and relieve the bottlenecks in training. What management is trying to do is get everyone pulling in the same direction and on the same team. When we all pull together we win together.

    With your ground level 2D view and limited brainpower to see beyond hatred of all things Envoy, you fail to see behind the scenes workings and what is actually being done to shore up and solidify the good we have and to add to that. Why not take a trip to HQ and see for yourself. If you actually work here anymore that is.

    Caveat Emptor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    OMG. More Caveat Emptor BS along with heavy euphemisms on AA departing controlled flight. From your boxed into the corner viewpoint, you see AA/Envoy management as a bunch of feckless idiots flapping their arms up and down, going to long lunches, leaving early each day and nowhere to be found on Friday's.

    Let me assure you that the picture you paint is far from the truth. I have personally witnessed and been a part of meetings going into late evening in Envoy's HQ alone. And I do know that the same is happening over at AA HQ as well. Believe me, the 30,000 foot view is analyzed and re-analyzed and there are plans in place to increase the rate of new hires and relieve the bottlenecks in training. What management is trying to do is get everyone pulling in the same direction and on the same team. When we all pull together we win together.

    With your ground level 2D view and limited brainpower to see beyond hatred of all things Envoy, you fail to see behind the scenes workings and what is actually being done to shore up and solidify the good we have and to add to that. Why not take a trip to HQ and see for yourself. If you actually work here anymore that is.

    Caveat Emptor.
    OMG...........I’m LMFAO !!!

    “Pull together, win together” ?

    Talk about exhausted and empty slogans of the past that motivated no one. I’ll let the audience here decide for themselves if that concept is or ever HAS been truly in play at either Envoy (or its predecessor Eagle) or AA as anything other then a phony stick of hoped for motivation. As for the management teams you characterize as being razor sharp tacticians with all their ducks lined up.........well, I guess I see it differently then an intoxicated lackey of such groups. In Envoy’s case didn’t the pro’s from Dover shrink the company by half, close most of their domiciles and farm out your flying only to find themselves in a self-induced pickle and are now reversing their own past decisions completely ? How about having no choice but to bribe new-hires with compensation scheme’s higher then all other F/O’s just to get them in the door ? That doesn’t sound to shrewd to me. How about AA ? Didn’t they have an AML fiasco ( too large and heavy) that cost upwards of 5 million to reverse ? How about the uniform disaster ? How about going back and forth with the “more room for coach, less room for coach” dance repeatedly ? Why just last week I read now ORD-LGA will have a new “shuttle” brand between LGA and ORD that United invented in the 1960’s with the Caravelle. How about AA being way behind on pilot staffing due to dragging their feet on increasing school house capability for YEARS since BK ignoring all the warning signs regarding pilot staffing ?

    Pull together, win together ? You must be joking. Does 2% profit-sharing sound like “winning together” when AAG’s competition ALL pays substantially more to their employees without any silly, meaningless slogans ? Executives and management are all getting the “win” in that equation while the employees do all the pulling........and getting the shaft. Please Pinocchio, you must either stop this silliness or at least ask for a desk with a window to allow your nose to stretch to the airport boundary and beyond as it inevitably will do.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 01-29-2018 at 10:00 AM.

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    ď you see AA/Envoy management as a bunch of feckless idiots flapping their arms up and down, going to long lunches, leaving early each day and nowhere to be found on Friday'sĒ


    I thought this part was hilarious because nobody else brought it up. Are there no long lunches?

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    Hasnít anyone gotten tired of responding to the resident troll and look aid drinker?
    Heíll never enter a point counterpoint discussion on the real issues that face life on the line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirsnacksalot View Post
    Hasn’t anyone gotten tired of responding to the resident troll and look aid drinker?
    He’ll never enter a point counterpoint discussion on the real issues that face life on the line.
    What can I answer for you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirsnacksalot View Post
    Hasnít anyone gotten tired of responding to the resident troll and look aid drinker?
    Heíll never enter a point counterpoint discussion on the real issues that face life on the line.
    The DMG is certainly more then willing to make significant effort to respond here unrequested. Considering Pinocchio considers this forum to be little more then a ď10% crowd of losersĒ, itís baffling why such effort is made. To be more clear though, I donít consider all AAG/Envoy management in the light he claims I do, thatís just his hysterical bias showing.

    But itís more then clear repetitive mistakes have and are still being made. Itís also clear compared to most other management ďteamsĒ, both groups here are more proficient in talking the talk vs. walking the walk and Dacujís misrepresentation and cagey evasiveness are perfect examples of what Im talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    What can I answer for you?
    How about last years attrition statistics to include pilots who resigned for other employment (non flow), general resignations and training washouts ? It would be helpful to quantify all this hiring to get a better perspective on its impact and value.

    You know you have that info and itís not something secret.

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