Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 59

Thread: New Update On Flow

  1. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,468
    Level
    54
    Points: 6,767, Level: 54
    Overall activity: 79.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 197/9
    Given: 0/42

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    And we are growing. Think 3000 plus.
    LOL !

    Youíve been wallowing in your own BS for so long, the smell of truth is no longer recognized by you. Why not 4000 ? Why not 5000 ? Why not a pony for every pilot ? Come on man, you can do better then that. Accomplished snake oil salesman know how to ramp up believable BS and this performance is laughable. That many pilots would mean an additional 50 aircraft above present levels and AA Scope would be an issue (unless maybe Envoy is getting back in the turboprop business). It would also mean with attrition, both flow and non-flow, Envoy would have to hire another 1300-1500 pilots in the next 12-18 months. Even if Envoy could do that, the flip side is Envoy becoming an engine that requires even more gas...........HUGE amounts of gas in the form of essentially an endless supply of MANY, MANY pilots in perpetuity. That type of engine would make it MORE likely Envoy would have to completely stop the flow to keep their ravenous addiction fed.

    Of course there is another reason Envoy would try to bring on-board that many pilots and that is that they know, but wonít admit their pilot supply is finite and they simply want to stack the deck for when it does slow to a trickle. In that case they can flow at minimum rate for longer until inevitably they will have to make a move to slow attrition. Itís called ďkicking the canĒ, but if it gets a few more Envoyers to AA before trouble, thatís good for those lucky enough to slip through the cracks. Thanks for making my evening with a taste of your latest magic elixir, Dr. McGillicuddy.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 12-11-2017 at 09:43 PM.

  2. #22
    Registered User schmuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    543
    Level
    48
    Points: 5,749, Level: 48
    Overall activity: 79.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 33/3
    Given: 9/60

    Ignore User

    1 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Well it's interesting you say that 50 additional aircraft are required, because there was an article on Jetnet just published talking about Envoy's goals going forward. The article talked about fleet growth and the required personnel that would be required to handle the growth in terms of required pilots, FAs, mechanics etc. The article specifically said that growth from our current fleet level of 150 hulls to 200+ was the target...ie 50. Now, one could assume that obviously Envoy management would love such a thing and AAG could make it happen within scope constraints by shifting flying from other carriers to Envoy. But the question is, will the supply of pilots last now that EDV changed the game.

  3. #23
    Registered User Vne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Job
    Rented mule
    Posts
    168
    Level
    28
    Points: 2,274, Level: 28
    Overall activity: 28.0%
    Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 15/0
    Given: 13/4

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
    Well it's interesting you say that 50 additional aircraft are required, because there was an article on Jetnet just published talking about Envoy's goals going forward. The article talked about fleet growth and the required personnel that would be required to handle the growth in terms of required pilots, FAs, mechanics etc. The article specifically said that growth from our current fleet level of 150 hulls to 200+ was the target...ie 50. Now, one could assume that obviously Envoy management would love such a thing and AAG could make it happen within scope constraints by shifting flying from other carriers to Envoy. But the question is, will the supply of pilots last now that EDV changed the game.
    AAG/Envoy can care now or it can care later...but it will care. One way or the other, sooner or later. Depends on how smart they are versus they think they are.
    Warlord of the crewroom.

  4. #24
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,468
    Level
    54
    Points: 6,767, Level: 54
    Overall activity: 79.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 197/9
    Given: 0/42

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
    Well it's interesting you say that 50 additional aircraft are required, because there was an article on Jetnet just published talking about Envoy's goals going forward. The article talked about fleet growth and the required personnel that would be required to handle the growth in terms of required pilots, FAs, mechanics etc. The article specifically said that growth from our current fleet level of 150 hulls to 200+ was the target...ie 50. Now, one could assume that obviously Envoy management would love such a thing and AAG could make it happen within scope constraints by shifting flying from other carriers to Envoy. But the question is, will the supply of pilots last now that EDV changed the game.
    The question is why would Envoy need 3000+ pilots to operate 200 (or slightly more) hulls ? Thatís a lot of pilots per aircraft. Itís not indicative of a healthy carrier, but one of a carrier shifting to defense because they know their goalie sucks and they need more bodies on the ice. Youíre right IMO about the EDV issue, but remember, they will just be the first as a United will shore up their vulnerability too. Poaching will come to an end soon and the street doesnít have anywhere near the new skaters Envoy will need to produce the Stanley Cup team the DMG claims is on the way.

    One likely sacrifice will be the flow at least to some degree which is already at long range cruise.

  5. #25
    Registered User Vne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Job
    Rented mule
    Posts
    168
    Level
    28
    Points: 2,274, Level: 28
    Overall activity: 28.0%
    Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 15/0
    Given: 13/4

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Because they need to grab that many up before they realized that they've hitched their wagons to "4th of 4" paradigm and realize that better is just an application and an interview away, that's why. AAG will do nothing until it is so hamstrung it cant afford to do anything else. By then upper management is gone and Dacuj/Neider is going to really not like this place. AAG doesnt realize that if Delta opened up a DFW base (like it had in the past) it would be toast as far as applications go.
    Warlord of the crewroom.

  6. #26
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,468
    Level
    54
    Points: 6,767, Level: 54
    Overall activity: 79.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 197/9
    Given: 0/42

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vne View Post
    Because they need to grab that many up before they realized that they've hitched their wagons to "4th of 4" paradigm and realize that better is just an application and an interview away, that's why. AAG will do nothing until it is so hamstrung it cant afford to do anything else. By then upper management is gone and Dacuj/Neider is going to really not like this place. AAG doesnt realize that if Delta opened up a DFW base (like it had in the past) it would be toast as far as applications go.
    My question was rhetorical as we all know the answer that they are front loading pilots while they can. It means they know that at some point and probably sooner rather then later, they will be woefully deficient in new-hire count. The flow will be in trouble at that point. But realistically, again as I mentioned, most present Envoy pilots with 8.5 year plus flow dates will be long gone considering the job opportunities over the next decade.

  7. #27
    Registered User Vne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Job
    Rented mule
    Posts
    168
    Level
    28
    Points: 2,274, Level: 28
    Overall activity: 28.0%
    Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 15/0
    Given: 13/4

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    My question was rhetorical as we all know the answer that they are front loading pilots while they can. It means they know that at some point and probably sooner rather then later, they will be woefully deficient in new-hire count. The flow will be in trouble at that point. But realistically, again as I mentioned, most present Envoy pilots with 8.5 year plus flow dates will be long gone considering the job opportunities over the next decade.
    They've willingly gone the way of the Dodo Bird while espousing "Flow!" and "World's largest!". But they don't see it yet. And we're just haters.

    The Flow is already in trouble due to the company metering - new hires see it and understand it's overall impact to their overall life-time earnings/senority/QoL due to the internet, especially the military guys. The Flow is more of a sieve - it's there to catch you if you don't get through elsewhere, as you planned. It's AAG that doesn't realize the .50 BMG-sized hole it's blowing in it's own foot by metering. But, hey, we're just dumb pilots. With apps elsewhere. They'll learn, the hard way.
    Warlord of the crewroom.

  8. #28
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    49
    Level
    39
    Points: 3,889, Level: 39
    Overall activity: 5.0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 4/18
    Given: 0/4

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    50% is 50%. Very few here care about 3000 plus pilots. Flow the proper amount. Match Endeavor. Youíll have to beat the new hires away.

  9. #29
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,468
    Level
    54
    Points: 6,767, Level: 54
    Overall activity: 79.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 197/9
    Given: 0/42

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Turboprop View Post
    50% is 50%. Very few here care about 3000 plus pilots. Flow the proper amount. Match Endeavor. Youíll have to beat the new hires away.
    Envoy matching Endeavorís contract is not a long-term solution. Once Delta and United level the playing field, poaching dies and all thatís left are street hires and that source is massively insufficient for the regional industryís needs. At that point, unless a streetie wants a specific AA/Envoy domicile, AA/Envoy will still be seen as the less then desirable choice due to AAís lack of competitive compensation and QWL. Itís going to take a complete overhaul of the AAG culture and that is a very tall order.

    Just look at the arrogant tools like the DMG showing all pilots what this culture is about for a demonstration of the significance of the problem. Lying, cheating and disregard are still very much the vibe of this culture as demonstrated by the DMG consistently.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 12-12-2017 at 09:58 AM.

  10. #30
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    345
    Level
    41
    Points: 4,180, Level: 41
    Overall activity: 28.0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 18/1
    Given: 0/0

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
    Well it's interesting you say that 50 additional aircraft are required, because there was an article on Jetnet just published talking about Envoy's goals going forward. The article talked about fleet growth and the required personnel that would be required to handle the growth in terms of required pilots, FAs, mechanics etc. The article specifically said that growth from our current fleet level of 150 hulls to 200+ was the target...ie 50. Now, one could assume that obviously Envoy management would love such a thing and AAG could make it happen within scope constraints by shifting flying from other carriers to Envoy. But the question is, will the supply of pilots last now that EDV changed the game.
    45 or so 140s out of the desert + ten 175s will hit their 50.

  11. #31
    Registered User Dacuj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    385
    Level
    51
    Points: 6,301, Level: 51
    Overall activity: 85.0%
    Achievements:
    Overdrive5000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 9/111
    Given: 0/3

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    The question is why would Envoy need 3000+ pilots to operate 200 (or slightly more) hulls ? That’s a lot of pilots per aircraft. It’s not indicative of a healthy carrier, but one of a carrier shifting to defense because they know their goalie sucks and they need more bodies on the ice. You’re right IMO about the EDV issue, but remember, they will just be the first as a United will shore up their vulnerability too. Poaching will come to an end soon and the street doesn’t have anywhere near the new skaters Envoy will need to produce the Stanley Cup team the DMG claims is on the way.

    One likely sacrifice will be the flow at least to some degree which is already at long range cruise.
    One of your haters just agreed with me. There you go. It’s no secret that the Envoy fleet count has been going up. More is planned. I’ll just leave it at that. 3000 plus is the sweet spot in terms of staffing. Not IF we get to 3k but WHEN, Envoy will be a true behemoth and there won’t be a better spot to land for a new hire.

  12. #32
    Registered User schmuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    543
    Level
    48
    Points: 5,749, Level: 48
    Overall activity: 79.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 33/3
    Given: 9/60

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    One of your haters just agreed with me. There you go. It’s no secret that the Envoy fleet count has been going up. More is planned. I’ll just leave it at that. 3000 plus is the sweet spot in terms of staffing. Not IF we get to 3k but WHEN, Envoy will be a true behemoth and there won’t be a better spot to land for a new hire.
    Why do you think we'd be excited about growing to a size that requires nearly 1,000 more pilots and the inevitable metering that will come along with that? Metering is why the current projections for a new hire is to flow in 8.5-9 years.

  13. #33
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    345
    Level
    41
    Points: 4,180, Level: 41
    Overall activity: 28.0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 18/1
    Given: 0/0

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    One of your haters just agreed with me. There you go. It’s no secret that the Envoy fleet count has been going up. More is planned. I’ll just leave it at that. 3000 plus is the sweet spot in terms of staffing. Not IF we get to 3k but WHEN, Envoy will be a true behemoth and there won’t be a better spot to land for a new hire.
    LOL you're a trip

  14. #34
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Company
    Envoy
    Base
    ORD DFW
    Job
    Pilot
    A/C Flown
    CRJ
    Posts
    16
    Level
    9
    Points: 453, Level: 9
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    3 months registered250 Experience Points
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 0/0
    Given: 0/0

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    One of your haters just agreed with me. There you go. It’s no secret that the Envoy fleet count has been going up. More is planned. I’ll just leave it at that. 3000 plus is the sweet spot in terms of staffing. Not IF we get to 3k but WHEN, Envoy will be a true behemoth and there won’t be a better spot to land for a new hire.
    Home-slice: A). Were you here when we had 3300+ pilots, ala 2011-ish? If so, do you remember WHY AMR, then AAG, decided to reduce our ranks and farmed out over 50% of the flying that we were doing?

    B). You don't intend to ever flow, do you?

  15. #35
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    169
    Level
    42
    Points: 4,550, Level: 42
    Overall activity: 56.0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteranOverdrive
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 6/0
    Given: 5/1

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    FYI, he never answers questions.

  16. #36
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    345
    Level
    41
    Points: 4,180, Level: 41
    Overall activity: 28.0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 18/1
    Given: 0/0

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sirsnacksalot View Post
    FYI, he never answers questions.
    It's just some line guy taking the p!ss, dunno why anyone takes him seriously.

  17. #37
    Registered User Pancakes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Company
    o boy
    Job
    Buttonpusherknobtwisterlevermover
    Posts
    199
    Level
    51
    Points: 6,336, Level: 51
    Overall activity: 34.0%
    Achievements:
    Created Album picturesVeteran5000 Experience PointsTagger Second Class
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 24/0
    Given: 70/5

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    (3000 - 2000) x 0.5 / 100 = 5 years
    C'mon, the math is just right there. Those are numbers! Can't you see?

  18. #38
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    101
    Level
    14
    Points: 714, Level: 14
    Overall activity: 45.0%
    Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 7/0
    Given: 0/0

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    No. Youíre all missing it. Itís WAY above us to understand what goes on behind the magic curtain.

  19. #39
    Registered User RIGHTWINGMAN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    281
    Level
    44
    Points: 4,908, Level: 44
    Overall activity: 11.0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 27/7
    Given: 4/1

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    You probably mean the Iron Curtain.

  20. #40
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    57
    Level
    39
    Points: 3,851, Level: 39
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 4/0
    Given: 0/1

    Ignore User

    1 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    And we are growing. Think 3000 plus.
    That would be a 10-12 year flow for a new hire with the current rate the company is flowing. Good luck getting new hires after time to upgrade starts going up later next year.
    Last edited by Mr mojo; 12-12-2017 at 06:50 PM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •