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Thread: New Update On Flow

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    LOL !

    You’ve been wallowing in your own BS for so long, the smell of truth is no longer recognized by you. Why not 4000 ? Why not 5000 ? Why not a pony for every pilot ? Come on man, you can do better then that. Accomplished snake oil salesman know how to ramp up believable BS and this performance is laughable. That many pilots would mean an additional 50 aircraft above present levels and AA Scope would be an issue (unless maybe Envoy is getting back in the turboprop business). It would also mean with attrition, both flow and non-flow, Envoy would have to hire another 1300-1500 pilots in the next 12-18 months. Even if Envoy could do that, the flip side is Envoy becoming an engine that requires even more gas...........HUGE amounts of gas in the form of essentially an endless supply of MANY, MANY pilots in perpetuity. That type of engine would make it MORE likely Envoy would have to completely stop the flow to keep their ravenous addiction fed.

    Of course there is another reason Envoy would try to bring on-board that many pilots and that is that they know, but won’t admit their pilot supply is finite and they simply want to stack the deck for when it does slow to a trickle. In that case they can flow at minimum rate for longer until inevitably they will have to make a move to slow attrition. It’s called “kicking the can”, but if it gets a few more Envoyers to AA before trouble, that’s good for those lucky enough to slip through the cracks. Thanks for making my evening with a taste of your latest magic elixir, Dr. McGillicuddy.
    Facts: Envoy went from 1800 to 2200 pilots this past year - year and a half. 20% increase. 3000 isn't out of the realm if management makes some adjustments. They won't

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    Quote Originally Posted by turboprop View Post
    50% is 50%. Very few here care about 3000 plus pilots. Flow the proper amount. Match endeavor. You’ll have to beat the new hires away.
    this

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    you all should look at letter 15-01
    This is your flow, argue all you want, as Dacuj says, Its contractual
    Not taking sides, just pointing out what the company will do since the contract says they can.

    “Protected Pilots” Hired By Envoy On or Before October 11, 2011
    􀁸 The provisions of Letters 12-02, 12-03 and 12-04 (“Protected Pilots”) shall
    remain in full force and effect and will be enhanced by the language below:
    􀁸 Upon delivery of the 40th EMB-175 as set forth in Appendix D, and
    assuming there are still pilots who were added to the Envoy master seniority
    list on or before October 11, 2011 who have not yet been offered a flow
    through opportunity, 50% of all AA new hire training slots, no fewer than 25 per
    month (subject to the 50%), shall go to such Envoy pilots, until the point in time
    when the next pilot on the Envoy master seniority list to be offered a flow
    through opportunity was hired after October 11, 2011.
    ================================================== =================================================
    Pilots Hired By Envoy After October 11, 2011
    �� At the point in time when the first pilot hired after October 11, 2011 is offered
    a flow through opportunity, if AA is hiring pilots, 35% of all AA new hire training
    slots, no fewer than 15 per month (subject to the 35%), shall go to Envoy pilots.

    The minimum flow numbers
    will continue to apply following issuance by the Federal Aviation Administration
    of a single operating certificate (SOC) for US Airways and AA. Pilots hired by
    Envoy after October 11, 2011 with an active Performance Advisory or
    Attendance Control Policy Advisory are not eligible for flow through. Such a
    pilot may elect to have pending grievance of an active advisory resolved under
    expedited procedures.

    Pilots Hired After DOS
    �� At the point in time when the first pilot hired after DOS is offered a flow
    through opportunity, if AA is hiring pilots, the lesser of (a) 25% of all AA new
    hire training slots in that calendar year, or (b) five new hire training slots
    (increased by one for every 125 pilots above the base number of 480 on the
    Envoy master seniority list) times (“x”) the number of calendar months in that
    calendar year in which AA actually hired pilots, shall go to Envoy pilots.

    The Pilots hired after DOS, do the math, if I am not wrong based on 1000 new hires over 11 months (AA takes December off)
    you get either 250 flows or Dacujs 3000 envoy pilot seniority equals to 5 flows x 11 months =55 plus (3000-480=2520/125=20)20x11=220
    220 + 55 = 275. each 1000 pilots on the roster after the first 480 in this formula equals 8 flows per month.
    Last edited by ardvark; 12-12-2017 at 07:40 PM.
    Sir, can I have another.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr mojo View Post
    Facts: Envoy went from 1800 to 2200 pilots this past year - year and a half. 20% increase. 3000 isn't out of the realm if management makes some adjustments. They won't
    400 pilots in 18 months. OK. But didn’t many get bogged down with multi month waits in the training process due to Envoy’s inability to train ? Could Envoy double that number in the next 18 months with their record ? Doubtful, but actually with attrition, they’d have to triple it. Even if they could, would there be enough street hires every year for the next decade to make sure today’s new-hires flow based on minimum rate ? VERY doubtful.

    But we seem to partially agree Envoy won’t “make adjustments”, but I believe that even if they could or would, outside forces will impede that ability in the future. There just won’t be enough street hires to go around. Remember, we have to look not just what is possible over the next 18 months, but what is REQUIRED over the next 5-10 years.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    you all should look at letter 15-01
    This is your flow, argue all you want, as Dacuj says, Its contractual
    Not taking sides, just pointing out what the company will do since the contract says they can.

    “Protected Pilots” Hired By Envoy On or Before October 11, 2011
    �� The provisions of Letters 12-02, 12-03 and 12-04 (“Protected Pilots”) shall
    remain in full force and effect and will be enhanced by the language below:
    �� Upon delivery of the 40th EMB-175 as set forth in Appendix D, and
    assuming there are still pilots who were added to the Envoy master seniority
    list on or before October 11, 2011 who have not yet been offered a flow
    through opportunity, 50% of all AA new hire training slots, no fewer than 25 per
    month (subject to the 50%), shall go to such Envoy pilots, until the point in time
    when the next pilot on the Envoy master seniority list to be offered a flow
    through opportunity was hired after October 11, 2011.
    ================================================== =================================================
    Pilots Hired By Envoy After October 11, 2011
    �� At the point in time when the first pilot hired after October 11, 2011 is offered
    a flow through opportunity, if AA is hiring pilots, 35% of all AA new hire training
    slots, no fewer than 15 per month (subject to the 35%), shall go to Envoy pilots.

    The minimum flow numbers
    will continue to apply following issuance by the Federal Aviation Administration
    of a single operating certificate (SOC) for US Airways and AA. Pilots hired by
    Envoy after October 11, 2011 with an active Performance Advisory or
    Attendance Control Policy Advisory are not eligible for flow through. Such a
    pilot may elect to have pending grievance of an active advisory resolved under
    expedited procedures.

    Pilots Hired After DOS
    �� At the point in time when the first pilot hired after DOS is offered a flow
    through opportunity, if AA is hiring pilots, the lesser of (a) 25% of all AA new
    hire training slots in that calendar year, or (b) five new hire training slots
    (increased by one for every 125 pilots above the base number of 480 on the
    Envoy master seniority list) times (“x”) the number of calendar months in that
    calendar year in which AA actually hired pilots, shall go to Envoy pilots.

    The Pilots hired after DOS, do the math, if I am not wrong based on 1000 new hires over 11 months (AA takes December off)
    you get either 250 flows or Dacujs 3000 envoy pilot seniority equals to 5 flows x 11 months =55 plus (3000-480=2520/125=20)20x11=220
    220 + 55 = 275. each 1000 pilots on the roster after the first 480 in this formula equals 8 flows per month.
    Ouch ! The trickle thru turns into the drip through.

  6. #46
    Registered User Dacuj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Ouch ! The trickle thru turns into the drip through.
    What is it that just makes you seethe with hatred for Envoy? Do you see red when you see a really young guy in the terminal wearing the same uniform as you but then you find out he's Envoy, when you pass the mini 737's we fly now on the taxiway while you are looking on from the right seat of your 80, when you see new bodies monthly heading down the jetway to an AA jet that have gushed through from Envoy? What specifically is it that gives you nightmares about Envoy in its present state?

    So much so that you have designated yourself the head coach and cheerleader for the destruction of Envoy? Is it because Envoy is better than the "old" Eagle was in current form? Do you wake up with nightmares of one of our mini 73's chasing you down from behind?

    You are so adamantly against Envoy and constantly put out this fake news here (and on other forums) day after day. Do you realize that you have a problem sir? That there is the first step to letting go and healing.

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    Dacuj.

    Why can't you man up and answer one simple question; How long is the flow TODAY, FOR A NEW HIRE HIRED TODAY BASE ON THE FLOWS CURRENT RATE AND CURRENT CONTRACTUAL METERED RATE?

    WHY CAN'T YOU ANSWER THAT SIMPLE QUESTION?

    If you can't see that most here are frustrated with the LONG FLOW TIMES and QOL ISSUES that management is unwilling to acknowledge nor address you are helpless. If those things were fix most of the b!tch!ing here would stop overnight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    What is it that just makes you seethe with hatred for Envoy? Do you see red when you see a really young guy in the terminal wearing the same uniform as you but then you find out he's Envoy, when you pass the mini 737's we fly now on the taxiway while you are looking on from the right seat of your 80, when you see new bodies monthly heading down the jetway to an AA jet that have gushed through from Envoy? What specifically is it that gives you nightmares about Envoy in its present state?

    So much so that you have designated yourself the head coach and cheerleader for the destruction of Envoy? Is it because Envoy is better than the "old" Eagle was in current form? Do you wake up with nightmares of one of our mini 73's chasing you down from behind?

    You are so adamantly against Envoy and constantly put out this fake news here (and on other forums) day after day. Do you realize that you have a problem sir? That there is the first step to letting go and healing.
    What an enjoyable post for me to read. I look beyond your inverted reality to see the hysterical rantings of someone coming unglued and what a wonderful Christmas gift that is for me in your case. The reality is I want to see MORE Envoy pilots flow faster. My “Ouch” statement wasn’t mocking the misfortune of Envoy pilots and the flow, it was validating Ard’s factual revelation that the flow will likely SLOW dramatically in the future as the minimum rate decreases. I think FACTUAL information is GOOD for Envoy pilots to better plan their futures, even that which is unfortunate.

    All you’ve got when it becomes obvious you’re bankrupt of a valid response to such info is fleeing to your Alamo response of your silly S80 inferiority complex and my supposed jealousy of the E175 or younger pilots flowing to AA. Thank you again for this blessed gift of Yule, for I couldn’t have asked anything better from you. What a joyous day it is !
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 12-13-2017 at 09:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    What is it that just makes you seethe with hatred for Envoy? Do you see red when you see a really young guy in the terminal wearing the same uniform as you but then you find out he's Envoy, when you pass the mini 737's we fly now on the taxiway while you are looking on from the right seat of your 80, when you see new bodies monthly heading down the jetway to an AA jet that have gushed through from Envoy? What specifically is it that gives you nightmares about Envoy in its present state?

    So much so that you have designated yourself the head coach and cheerleader for the destruction of Envoy? Is it because Envoy is better than the "old" Eagle was in current form? Do you wake up with nightmares of one of our mini 73's chasing you down from behind?

    You are so adamantly against Envoy and constantly put out this fake news here (and on other forums) day after day. Do you realize that you have a problem sir? That there is the first step to letting go and healing.
    Run on sentences aside, I would’ve expected a better response from an accomplished snake oil salesman like yourself.

    Envoy SUCKS plain and simple. They have done nothing to improve QOL, and yet you sit here preaching about flow and “chasing down” super 80s in your shiny e175. I really think you need professional help.
    Last edited by Standby4life; 12-17-2017 at 05:09 PM.

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    I didn’t realize that the trickled down flow was being catagorized as a “gusher”.
    Also, the fact that daspooge refers to a 175 as a mini 737 seems to point towards some sort of feeling of inadequacy on his part.
    Last edited by Sirsnacksalot; 12-17-2017 at 05:31 PM.

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    That's what she said to him

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr mojo View Post
    Facts: Envoy went from 1800 to 2200 pilots this past year - year and a half. 20% increase. 3000 isn't out of the realm if management makes some adjustments. They won't
    3200 before they decided to piss it away.....
    __________________________________________________ __

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    What an enjoyable post for me to read. I look beyond your inverted reality to see the hysterical rantings of someone coming unglued and what a wonderful Christmas gift that is for me in your case. The reality is I want to see MORE Envoy pilots flow faster. My “Ouch” statement wasn’t mocking the misfortune of Envoy pilots and the flow, it was validating Ard’s factual revelation that the flow will likely SLOW dramatically in the future as the minimum rate decreases. I think FACTUAL information is GOOD for Envoy pilots to better plan their futures, even that which is unfortunate.

    All you’ve got when it becomes obvious you’re bankrupt of a valid response to such info is fleeing to your Alamo response of your silly S80 inferiority complex and my supposed jealousy of the E175 or younger pilots flowing to AA. Thank you again for this blessed gift of Yule, for I couldn’t have asked anything better from you. What a joyous day it is !
    Hmmm. More lies and hysterical rantings of a bitter ex employee who just seethes with rage and hatred when he sees an Envoy aircraft taxiing by or an Envoy pilot in the terminal wearing the same uniform as you do. Do you realize that for several years now you have blared out essentially the same message above? You do know that you are like the boy who cried wolf. When none of these doomsday predictions came to pass, you kept shouting but NO ONE IS LISTENING.

    You sir have violated TOS here due to your mountain of lies. All is want for Christmas is for beagleboy to be banned from this board.

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    You still have not answered one question of all that have been asked of you, you only rant about flow. How about the,QOL issues, schedule issues, pay issues, medical coverage issues, flow comes years later, these issues,we have mentioned we live daily but no answers from you, why is that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Hmmm. More lies and hysterical rantings of a bitter ex employee who just seethes with rage and hatred when he sees an Envoy aircraft taxiing by or an Envoy pilot in the terminal wearing the same uniform as you do. Do you realize that for several years now you have blared out essentially the same message above? You do know that you are like the boy who cried wolf. When none of these doomsday predictions came to pass, you kept shouting but NO ONE IS LISTENING.
    Yet another Christmas gift from my favorite grifter. But, you've already given me this gift, so I'll have to return the duplicate here. Since according to you I am at retirement, I should have plenty of time for that.

    It used to be pleasurable to see you repeatedly parrot the same claims, assumptions, insinuations and threats repeatedly apparently oblivious that it actually applies to you (except the threats which you own) as it is you who make the same empty claims of irrelevancy and from the responses on this forum, it looks like it is also you who is not being listened to proven by the almost complete absence of validation from non DMG sources. Merry Christmas and a Happy new year to you as it is you who appear full of hatred and rage and that's no place to be in this holiday season, especially at Envoy where the pilots tree is filled with gifts from management and their stockings are hung by the chimney with care and are bulging and absent of coal. I have nothing but joy in my heart and wish to extend that to all Envoy pilots in the form of demonstration of free opinion and encouraging such as well as concurrent freedom to form their own opinions as a result of their perceptions of others. Again, from the comments on this board, it is my opinion that most of their opinions (by far) are much closer to mine then yours and I'm sorry if that is leading you dark places like obsession, deranged paranoia, denial and substance abuse. Might I suggest purchasing a little doll, naming it "beagleboy" and hanging it in your drab cube so as to have something to periodically stick pins into for emotional support and relief ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    You sir have violated TOS here due to your mountain of lies. All is want for Christmas is for beagleboy to be banned from this board.
    How ironic, demented and sad it is to see the member who hands down has the most violations of TOS here up to and including threatening other members wish to Santa for unilateral power of suppression and censorship. Silencing those you have unbridled hatred and rage for will not make the painful realities that you deny exist disappear, only continue to shield them from your awareness. It won't change what others see and experience either, so that reality continues as reality regardless of any success you have in silencing all who don't follow your manifesto of insanity. Considering what a tumultuous mental state you appear to be in, my wish for you is for Santa to deliver you the help you so desperately need to free yourself from being the tool you have become. Godspeed my poor misguided child and may the new year bring you many psychiatric boons.

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    January classes already shaping up and looking fantastic.

    Beaglep***k wrong again.

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    And how do large classes of new hires in any way correct any of the daily complaint about QOL, schedules and pay issues, how exactly do they help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    January classes already shaping up and looking fantastic.

    Beaglep***k wrong again.
    Not disputing class sizes, only how it translates into tangible benefits to the pilot group. Initial new-hire class size really doesn't mean much either until it can be quantified at a later date. If some wash out or leave for greener pastures in short order, initial size meaning is diluted. At any rate, beagleboy talks not about initial size for that reason, but about what has resulted and seeing very little, so in that respect, beagleboy is still correct.

    Flow fell well short of expectations in 2017, scheduling still a reported mess and any new E175's or bases still keep many pilots blocked out with worthless seniority. Those are tangible results which are facts, not aspects yet to be quantified like bodies coming in the door. Nice try flipper, but until management starts turning those new bodies into something the pilot group as a whole can demonstrate is valuable, it's all more psycobabble from the DMG.

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    From AA Pilots:

    2018 Hiring Projections
    What are future pilot hiring projections for American Airlines?
    Our projections indicate we will hire 730 pilots in 2018. This hiring is a result of many factors, including the fact that a lot of our pilots are approaching the FAA’s mandatory pilot retirement age of 65. About half of our new hire pilots come to us via flow-through agreements with our wholly owned regional carriers. The remainder consists of pilots who come from the large pool of qualified candidates who have applied to be American Airlines pilots.

    7067.JPG

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