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Thread: Get Excited...Growths a comin’

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    Get Excited...Growths a comin’


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    54 in class today. Speaks volumes doesn’t it? Proves Envoy is THE place to be. It’s no secret that growth is coming our way. As in a 3000 plus pilot group. Management wants us to take more and more flying working up to the total pilot group above.

    Sure would like to hear from those that said our hiring was dead in the water after Endeavors TA. Again, proves that new hires want a true career path and FLOW. Envoy offers both. In spades.

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    Growth isn't good for most on property, growth only means more METERED FLOW.

    Take those retention bonuses and new hire bonuses away and see how many value the flow!

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    The Endeavor TA voting doesn't even end until tomorrow. Let's see what happens with that. And if it passes, will AA/Envoy decide to follow suit? If it passes and Envoy doesn't match, I would expect to see an affect on our class sizes in the New Year. Now is too early to see any affect from that. But 54 is good, sure.

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    Regardless of the size of new hire classes and regardless of envoy was 1200 or 100000 pilots, the flow will be metered to 25 unless contract stipulates otherwise. It's average 275 flow per year. Those are facts not dreamers wish.

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    How can you even compare the two? Endeavor hasn't even finished voting for their contract. Do you have class numbers for endeavor to compare to?

    Out of curiosity what are they offering at Envoy in terms of retention for pilots on property?

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    Sounds like the Town Crier is hittin the sauce early on a Monday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Regardless of the size of new hire classes and regardless of envoy was 1200 or 100000 pilots, the flow will be metered to 25 unless contract stipulates otherwise. It's average 275 flow per year. Those are facts not dreamers wish.
    Friendly reminder: 25/month only lasts until the end of protected pilots, then it begins to decrease.

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    We used to have over 3000 pilots until Füher Glass was turned loose. Now it’s costing AAG millions more than they saved to get back to that number. Idiots.

    And yet, flow is still metered. This place is a joke.

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    "take more and more flying" - AA pilots, especially former American Eagle/Envoy, not too crazy about that concept.

    Jerry Glass – the not so friendly ReichsFührer shows up during contract time for AAG (AMR) work groups. Were not glad you're here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowHand View Post
    "take more and more flying" - AA pilots, especially former American Eagle/Envoy, not too crazy about that concept.
    AA's regional system will be limited by scope for the foreseeable future and I'm convinced all AA regionals including Envoy will soon be hamstrung by available pilots to fill both cockpit seats, especially once Delta and United close off their Envoy spigots and the remainder of the regionals founder. But, as AA's regionals then contract, market share is lost due to feed reduction which is bad for AA unless AAG reverses course and increases mainline growth or more likely accelerates outsourcing via codeshare. Problem is, should they choose to grow mainline is that the Airbus availability is too backed up to be an option and not likely they'll put 737Max on regional routes. AA could order Group I, but what does that pay ?

    Either then AA shrinks along with its shrinking regional system or Envoy pilots flow to a future Group I life at AA, which considering APA's contract including pay and work rules will make that inferior to Airbus life at Spirit, Frontier and Jet Blue. Southwest is already past AA, so that's not even in the equation. Most likely, they'd just outsource and that's the worst situation for those coming aboard at AA in the future and junior.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 11-20-2017 at 01:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    AA's regional system will be limited by scope for the foreseeable future and I'm convinced all AA regionals including Envoy will soon be hamstrung by available pilots to fill both cockpit seats, especially once Delta and United close off their Envoy spigots and the remainder of the regionals founder. But, as AA's regionals then contract, market share is lost due to feed reduction which is bad for AA unless AAG reverses course and increases mainline growth or more likely accelerates outsourcing via codeshare. Problem is, should they choose to grow mainline is that the Airbus availability is too backed up to be an option and not likely they'll put 737Max on regional routes. AA could order Group I, but what does that pay ?

    Either then AA shrinks along with its shrinking regional system or Envoy pilots flow to a future Group I life at AA, which considering APA's contract including pay and work rules will make that inferior to Airbus life at Spirit, Frontier and Jet Blue. Southwest is already past AA, so that's not even in the equation. Most likely, they'd just outsource and that's the worst situation for those coming aboard at AA in the future and junior.
    “Envoy pilots flow to a future Group I life at AA, which considering APA's contract including pay and work rules will make that inferior to...”

    Hell of a statement my friend...
    Imagine if AAG transfers Group II flying to Group I. $100.00 an hour difference in pay at mainline. Group I will be regional wages compared with others...and not even Southwest/Spirit/Frontier will be able to compete with that. Huge savings, gutsiest and profitable move by management. The question is what equipment will be the New American Group I?

    Growth is coming...Dacuj is right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    “Envoy pilots flow to a future Group I life at AA, which considering APA's contract including pay and work rules will make that inferior to...”

    Hell of a statement my friend...
    Imagine if AAG transfers Group II flying to Group I. $100.00 an hour difference in pay at mainline. Group I will be regional wages compared with others...and not even Southwest/Spirit/Frontier will be able to compete with that. Huge savings, gutsiest and profitable move by management. The question is what equipment will be the New American Group I?

    Growth is coming...Dacuj is right.
    Yes, there IS a possibility of transferring some of present Group II AA flying to Group I in the future, but in that situation I wouldn’t call that growth. Many at AA have been concerned the remainder of the S80’s, the E-190’s and the older Airbus/737 flying is being retained in part because AAG is waiting to see how the NextGen Embraer/CS aircraft take hold along with the viability of the regionals over the next 18 months. A couple of hundred Group 1 aircraft to replace say 100 or more present Group II flying (along with some regional flying) would be what I talked about and mean most new-hires would go to Group I and be there for awhile. Remember AA flies the A321 in Group II, which is a partial replacement for Group III 757, so they’ve done this before, to say nothing of transferring Group II to the regionals or outsourcing to codeshare altogether. They are pro’s at shafting AA pilots.

    Dacuj’s point wasn’t mainline growth anyway, but Envoy’s which is a Freudian slip on his part as only someone who would NOT be flowing to AA would be happy about additional growth anywhere in the Eagle system. That should confirm to everyone just what a 🐍 in the grass he is,

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    More like a steaming pile of 💩 in the grass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rcflying53 View Post
    More like a steaming pile of 💩 in the grass.
    Nailed it!

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    Before bankruptcy and the Glasshole, we had 3,200 pilots on property at Eagle. We will never get it, but I still want a formal written apology from management for the treatment we received and a promise they will never allow Glass nor his company to be involved with envoy ever again. Yea, yea, it will never happen I know.

    You would think even dacuj would recognize the irony in talking about a 3,000 pilot group here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTrinityDawn View Post
    Before bankruptcy and the Glasshole, we had 3,200 pilots on property at Eagle. We will never get it, but I still want a formal written apology from management for the treatment we received and a promise they will never allow Glass nor his company to be involved with envoy ever again. Yea, yea, it will never happen I know.

    You would think even dacuj would recognize the irony in talking about a 3,000 pilot group here.
    Irony? All I see is that AAG recognizes Envoy is reliable and the service mirrors AA. Thus the need to expand Envoy and delegate more flying here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Irony? All I see is that AAG recognizes Envoy is reliable and the service mirrors AA. Thus the need to expand Envoy and delegate more flying here.
    Yup, that’s why they’re almost certain to run the flow as slow as possible in the future and continue interpreting contract language to their advantage, both of which aren’t good for Envoy pilots. It’s the best chance they have to maintain present reliability, especially if they plan to delegate even more flying here as you claim.

    IMO, Envoy pilots need to come to terms with this when considering their futures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Irony? All I see is that AAG recognizes Envoy is reliable and the service mirrors AA. Thus the need to expand Envoy and delegate more flying here.
    “Irony? All I see is that AAG recognizes Envoy is reliable and the service mirrors AA. Thus the need to expand Envoy and delegate more flying here.”

    Nope, that’s what AAG have to do when feeders walk away from AA. Air Wisconsin, Compass(within 12 months) Republic Airways (coming soon). We will see if Money talks and BS flows. We have to grow they have no option than bring all the flying back. Lot’s of failures in the school house and that is not helping the situation either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    “Irony? All I see is that AAG recognizes Envoy is reliable and the service mirrors AA. Thus the need to expand Envoy and delegate more flying here.”

    Nope, that’s what AAG have to do when feeders walk away from AA. Air Wisconsin, Compass(within 12 months) Republic Airways (coming soon). We will see if Money talks and BS flows. We have to grow they have no option than bring all the flying back. Lot’s of failures in the school house and that is not helping the situation either.
    Again, what happens to Envoy (and the flow) when the whole plan of making Envoy THE AA feeder du jour runs out of street Captains and F/O’s ? That won’t be good for both AA and Envoy or their pilots.

    It’s definately a gamble.

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