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Thread: Frontier Airlines Expansion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Incredibly stupid move for someone to leave Envoy to go to Frontier. I could go into a myriad of reasons why and I know most here will come up with a thousand reasons why one should go to Frontier, most of these reasons bogus by the way. The fact is having the flow in your back pocket while applying elsewhere, if that’s your desire, is far preferable than going to a ridiculously risky carrier like Frontier.
    So far fetched this makes my head spin. Whether you like it or not, LCC’s absolutely blow away the legacy carriers in terms of profitability, just look at their quarterly earnings reports.

    Secondly, I’m fairly confident recruiters like to see upward progression, so by telling guys not to leave for Spirit/Frontier is ridiculous. Once those guys get their contracts, and the associated pay raises I would not be surprised to see people bailing left and right. They will get a market rate A320 contract, it’s just a matter of how long the company wants to battle the pilot group. Waiting around to flow, especially with Doug Parker at the helm is just as much of a gamble.

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    So far fetched this makes my head spin. Whether you like it or not, LCC’s absolutely blow away the legacy carriers in terms of profitability, just look at their quarterly earnings reports.

    Secondly, I’m fairly confident recruiters like to see upward progression, so by telling guys not to leave for Spirit/Frontier is ridiculous. Once those guys get their contracts, and the associated pay raises I would not be surprised to see people bailing left and right. They will get a market rate A320 contract, it’s just a matter of how long the company wants to battle the pilot group. Waiting around to flow, especially with Doug Parker at the helm is just as much of a gamble.


    It makes your head spin because you obviously have lost all capacity for rational thought. ANY LCC does not BLOW AWAY ANY legacy carrier. Most certainly not AA. Face it, it's a total gamble to go to one of these fly by night outfits. The next economic downturn, 9/11 scenario, you name it could cause any of these to contract and if not outright close the doors getting you furloughed or terminated. Number one, the pay sucks at the LCCs. Next, add to that the total instability of those type of carriers. Then look at the resume factor. Recruiters don't like to see a bunch of jumping around or lateral moves. Ask me how I know. If you come to Envoy, your path is set. You never have to interview again. And fortunately, we are attached to the largest major in the world. What is it about this that people fail to understand and totally jeopardize their career by going to one of these fly by night outfits?

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    8 yr flow. Come here for 2 yrs go to a ulcc for a few years on an airbus and then go to a major in less than 8 total yrs. if there is a 9/11 then take that type with you overseas and get paid. Better than being displaced out of your seat like the last 9/11 here at envoy

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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post


    It makes your head spin because you obviously have lost all capacity for rational thought. ANY LCC does not BLOW AWAY ANY legacy carrier. Most certainly not AA. Face it, it's a total gamble to go to one of these fly by night outfits. The next economic downturn, 9/11 scenario, you name it could cause any of these to contract and if not outright close the doors getting you furloughed or terminated. Number one, the pay sucks at the LCCs. Next, add to that the total instability of those type of carriers. Then look at the resume factor. Recruiters don't like to see a bunch of jumping around or lateral moves. Ask me how I know. If you come to Envoy, your path is set. You never have to interview again. And fortunately, we are attached to the largest major in the world. What is it about this that people fail to understand and totally jeopardize their career by going to one of these fly by night outfits?
    Can you do all of us a favor and tell that to the guys who waited for flow when 9/11/economic downturn happened? See what they have to say about flow. How many people have legacies laid off throughout the years so they can compete? Not saying that will happen again due to upcoming shortages, but a wide variety of reasons could potentially halt hiring.
    As a regional “recruiter” I really hope you aren’t selling all of this nonsense, as anyone should know nothing in aviation is written in stone. We are all at the mercy of a wide variety of factors.

    Frontier/Spirit is not unstable or a “fly by night” carrier. They made more in ancillary profits than any other carrier period, and in fact it is the legacy carriers who have to adapt to compete with the LCCs/ULCCs. Absolute WORST case scenario for those guys is getting absorbed by another legacy/major carrier.
    Last edited by Standby4life; 11-19-2017 at 10:11 AM.

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    But, but, it’s a 5 year flow! Da-splooge and fish-dick say so. Oh what’s that? It’s actually 12 years right now? That’s what I thought. Maybe I can sell the bank my “projected” income at AA in a number of years so I can buy that big mansion now. What say you, “Idiots of Irving?”

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    Just so all know, spirit was the only airline showing profits after 9-11 and still does while all other airlines were losing money for years. Southwest also made money and all mainline furloughed for 10 years but not any lcc.

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    Can you do all of us a favor and tell that to the guys who waited for flow when 9/11/economic downturn happened? See what they have to say about flow. How many people have legacies laid off throughout the years so they can compete? Not saying that will happen again due to upcoming shortages, but a wide variety of reasons could potentially halt hiring. As a regional “recruiter” I really hope you aren’t selling all of this nonsense, as anyone should know nothing in aviation is written in stone. We are all at the mercy of a wide variety of factors.

    Frontier/Spirit is not unstable or a “fly by night” carrier. They made more in ancillary profits than any other carrier period, and in fact it is the legacy carriers who have to adapt to compete with the LCCs/ULCCs. Absolute WORST case scenario for those guys is getting absorbed by another legacy/major carrier.


    That's real cute but your information is wrong. Yes, the legacies furloughed after 9/11, but you have to realize that the environment we are in today is totally different. I suggest you take a look at the retirement lists for all the legacies. These are readily available on different forums and publications. Regardless of an economic downturn now or other event, the legacies are still going to need THOUSANDS of pilots. That's even taking into consideration needing less for contraction in case of an event.

    So, I ask you again. Why would you jeopardize your career by going to a bottom feeder outfit when you are already in at AA via the front door (Envoy) and don't have to interview or compete with hundreds of other Joe Blow's? Do you seriously think having an Airbus type on your resume is going to swing any points in your favor with that AA recruiter reviewing your resume? The answer is no. Your resume will hit the round file as quickly as a hot knife going through butter.

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    So if you think the majors aren’t going to furlough going forward is it safe now to go to United? Rhetorical question

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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post


    That's real cute but your information is wrong. Yes, the legacies furloughed after 9/11, but you have to realize that the environment we are in today is totally different. I suggest you take a look at the retirement lists for all the legacies. These are readily available on different forums and publications. Regardless of an economic downturn now or other event, the legacies are still going to need THOUSANDS of pilots. That's even taking into consideration needing less for contraction in case of an event.

    So, I ask you again. Why would you jeopardize your career by going to a bottom feeder outfit when you are already in at AA via the front door (Envoy) and don't have to interview or compete with hundreds of other Joe Blow's? Do you seriously think having an Airbus type on your resume is going to swing any points in your favor with that AA recruiter reviewing your resume? The answer is no. Your resume will hit the round file as quickly as a hot knife going through butter.
    Envoy is a bottom feeder outfit aside from flow, I think that’s what you’re really missing. To think that any airline has your best interest in mind or cares about your career progression is foolish. They will dangle the flow carrot, instead of providing market rate pay in order to keep their seats filled. Best part? Guys play right into it, time and time again. To have flow as the last resort ace in the hole? Sure why not. At envoy, I was displaced 3 times, had 2 of my bases closed in a 6 month window with 3 move days. Really?

    Mark my words, when Spirit/Frontier gets their respective contract, and guys can make $85-90 first year please inform us on those class sizes.

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    "Bouncing from airline job to airline job" doesn't hinder your ability getting hired somewhere else. I know quite a few who have done so and are now at majors. 1-2 years at a regional, a year or so overseas, a year at a small cargo outfit, less than a year at Atlas, now at AA. Ideal? Probably not for some, but to say that if you leave Envoy to go to a LCC, AA will never hire you is flat wrong.

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    The flow is bust. They are offering up to 60k for new hire to sit at a regional that abuses it's pilot group. That qol stinks at envoy. Yes you have the flow as insurance if you dont get at a mainline on your own, but the flow i am hearing could be 7 years. So yes 60k and flow is good, but they still apply to leave and to get to mainline faster because everything in this business is seniority, the sooner to a mainline the more behind you for insurance from being furloughed some day.

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    Everyone knows the flow through is a tool in place to KEEP pilots at Envoy, hence why Dacuj and company want you to stay here. But if AA and Envoy really want to keep pilots here (such as if too many start leaving to further their careers more quickly elsewhere) they will need to increase the value of the flow. I know if I had an AA seniority number, I'd stay knowing that waiting for flow counted for something. As of right now, you flow and start over just like a new hire. If AA really values the Envoy pilots and wants them to stick it out, welcome them to the family properly.

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    apa wont give numbers ever again. that's a fact. apa owns the seniority list.
    Sir, can I have another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post


    It makes your head spin because you obviously have lost all capacity for rational thought. ANY LCC does not BLOW AWAY ANY legacy carrier. Most certainly not AA. Face it, it's a total gamble to go to one of these fly by night outfits. The next economic downturn, 9/11 scenario, you name it could cause any of these to contract and if not outright close the doors getting you furloughed or terminated. Number one, the pay sucks at the LCCs. Next, add to that the total instability of those type of carriers. Then look at the resume factor. Recruiters don't like to see a bunch of jumping around or lateral moves. Ask me how I know. If you come to Envoy, your path is set. You never have to interview again. And fortunately, we are attached to the largest major in the world. What is it about this that people fail to understand and totally jeopardize their career by going to one of these fly by night outfits?
    Another vertical blast of fecal sea sludge from the Broward blowhole.

    Recently, an AA Airbus captain revealed he compared recent monthly pay sheets with a Southwest captain and was left in the dust. In fact, that SWA captain apparently is pulling almost 370K/year, which is almost 100K more then 12 year Group II pay at AA. Southwest is an LCC by the way. I've looked at their schedules and they are MUCH more efficient then AA's and thus their pilots get more time at home for the higher pay. But, to be fair, AA (or those that fly or want to fly for it) should look at the other legacies for true comparison. In the case of Delta, AA isn't even in the ballpark with higher pay (and a just announced increase in company-wide profit sharing), better rigs (their 3 day trips PAY 3 days, whereas many of AA's pay 2 days for 3 days away with their inferior Minimum Calendar Day), MUCH better disability, and better vacation, sick, scheduling and I believe reserve. When compared to their peers, AA pilots contract S U C K S and why not................it's a bankruptcy contract. The truly bad news is that there is little chance of any improvement in the future beyond what Parker wants to give out of personal gain cloaked in benevolence.

    The other noteworthy LCC's like Jet Blue, Frontier and Spirit will have to up their ante to hold on to their pilots and are FAR more likely to then AA given past and present philosophy regarding pilots. As for AA being a "set path" (and thus Envoy as the red carpet to that path), that is prop wash. Considering AA's debt, culture, product and strategic decisions (especially doubling down on RJ's that require a component almost sure to vaporize in the near future), AA has as much or arguably more risk then any other carrier. Yes, a high percentage of retirements, but outsourcing and other factors can easily mitigate much of that advantage. Anyone who takes your Pollyanna crapola as gospel deserves what they get.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 11-19-2017 at 06:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancakes View Post
    Everyone knows the flow through is a tool in place to KEEP pilots at Envoy, hence why Dacuj and company want you to stay here. But if AA and Envoy really want to keep pilots here (such as if too many start leaving to further their careers more quickly elsewhere) they will need to increase the value of the flow. I know if I had an AA seniority number, I'd stay knowing that waiting for flow counted for something. As of right now, you flow and start over just like a new hire. If AA really values the Envoy pilots and wants them to stick it out, welcome them to the family properly.
    MUCH easier said then done. AA cannot simply hand out AA seniority numbers like candy. That would require agreement be APA, which really would require a thumbs up from the AA pilot group. Again, considering how AA pilots have repeatedly been (and continue to be) knifed in the back from a standpoint of failed promises and competitive compensation, that is presently impossible. For that to be possible, it would (at least IMO) require a HUGE shift in philosophy by AAG and that means a lot of $$$ outlay to correct the damage which would make the BOD and their penny-pinching bean counters howl. Wall street being business friendly would also criticize any move to give pilots a dime more by management then they are forced to give.

    Bottom Line : Don't hold your breath on that as the AA pilot group is far too bitter to just hand over more to people already gutting them with glee years after bankruptcy and rolling in the fattest profits in its history, so much so, management is rewarding THEMSELVES with monsterous profit-sharing while the front line employees eat cake. I'd plan for status quo in this arena.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 11-19-2017 at 06:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancakes View Post
    "Bouncing from airline job to airline job" doesn't hinder your ability getting hired somewhere else. I know quite a few who have done so and are now at majors. 1-2 years at a regional, a year or so overseas, a year at a small cargo outfit, less than a year at Atlas, now at AA. Ideal? Probably not for some, but to say that if you leave Envoy to go to a LCC, AA will never hire you is flat wrong.

    This, this this. Regional to a Major (LCC/ULCC) does NOT hinder your chances of getting hired at the big 3 if that's where you ultimately want to be. Staying at a regional getting RJ time doesn't really promote you any more than a guy who has been moving up and can prove that they can pass multiple 121 training regimens. I'd rather be working at a carrier that sells their own tickets, than work at a regional/wholly owned where flying and growth is dependent on the mother carrier.

    I also think long term that the LCC's/ULCC's pay scales will be very close to that of the legacies, so at that point go to a carrier that has a base close to home. Not gonna lose sleep over some money left on the table so I don't have to spend the rest of my career commuting. Legacy or not.

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    The ONLY reason I stayed here is because I couldn't get a call from anyone after multiple applications to multiple airlines, and several costly job fairs. After we got the first 175 and the flow picked up for the 824, my seniority picked up quickly and flow projection put me at about 18 months to get to AA. So, I stopped applying and wasting my money on job fairs. Today if I wanted to, I could probably walk in the door at an LCC, and have a good shot at the front door of AA/UA. Here's the dig: I should have flowed this past summer based on projections when we got the 1st 175. Guess what? I'm still here. I keep watching my projection get pushed farther and farther back. By the end of it, I could have a 6-8 month flow delay. And I know what the Envoy cheerleaders are going to say: Just be patient. Well f*ck you, too! Every month I don't flow is one less month I'll get to spend as a maxed out Captain at AA, a difference of $25-$30k PER MONTH based on my current rate of pay. So, I'm losing anywhere from $150,000-$240,000, depending on how you calculate it. So I say to any and all FOs - do NOT wait for the flow. It will cost you dearly -- even more so than it cost me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by No Tuna In Cockpit View Post
    The ONLY reason I stayed here is because I couldn't get a call from anyone after multiple applications to multiple airlines, and several costly job fairs. After we got the first 175 and the flow picked up for the 824, my seniority picked up quickly and flow projection put me at about 18 months to get to AA. So, I stopped applying and wasting my money on job fairs. Today if I wanted to, I could probably walk in the door at an LCC, and have a good shot at the front door of AA/UA. Here's the dig: I should have flowed this past summer based on projections when we got the 1st 175. Guess what? I'm still here. I keep watching my projection get pushed farther and farther back. By the end of it, I could have a 6-8 month flow delay. And I know what the Envoy cheerleaders are going to say: Just be patient. Well f*ck you, too! Every month I don't flow is one less month I'll get to spend as a maxed out Captain at AA, a difference of $25-$30k PER MONTH based on my current rate of pay. So, I'm losing anywhere from $150,000-$240,000, depending on how you calculate it. So I say to any and all FOs - do NOT wait for the flow. It will cost you dearly -- even more so than it cost me.
    I assume your calculations only involve lost time at senior captain. That might be a good comparator in losing seniority (and thus pay) within AA compared to those getting onboard at AA sooner from non-flow sources while you wallow in the dripping trickle flow-thru line from Envoy, but if you are comparing going elsewhere, that's not a good comparison. Considering "time lost" with say, Delta in the equation though, one must also consider total compensation differences between pilot careers. AA is NOT Delta insofar as an airline pilot career from a compensation standpoint. Delta is putting first year pilots into captains positions and the career earnings for a pilot hired by Delta today will be vastly............and I mean VASTLY superior to one flowing to AA today considering Delta's superior contract and faster advancement. Dacuj crows about Envoy being the largest single source of monthly pilots to AA and if spun that way, it sounds great, but........................if looked upon another way, in 2018 over 2/3 of every AA class will be pilots from places OTHER then Envoy, so one can look at the flow to AA from more then one perspective. Dacuj is here though to twist that perspective into one way in the hope it produces lazy complacency and that leads to pilots short-changing THEMSLEVES.

    As long as the flow runs at minimum trickle vs. what it could do, Envoy pilots are being short-changed if looking at AA as an internal equation as you do and that translates to REAL dollars lost. LOTS of dollars. But when compared to Delta...............it's a blowout and that's why it's bad enough when comparing those lost dollars in your consideration, but those who become complacent and stop aggressively looking elsewhere may be giving up even more depending on the non-AA comparator. The smart move IMO, is a philosophy of assuming the flow does not exist and basing your efforts at maximizing your career options based on that rather then accepting myopia and laziness like Dacuj wants you to do and just sit there like a lump waiting for your turn to flow to AA. BAD career move IMO.

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    Tell you what. You guys go ahead and make that career ending move to Frontier, Spirit, Jetblue. I’ll wave to you from my AA cockpit while you slug it out at your s**t LCC of choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    Tell you what. You guys go ahead and make that career ending move to Frontier, Spirit, Jetblue. I’ll wave to you from my AA cockpit while you slug it out at your s**t LCC of choice.
    You seem to take it personally should another Envoy pilot consider pursuing a path outside of AA. That smacks of rage and desperation. Have you thought about seeing someone to explore where that rage is really coming from ? Just a thought anyway.............

    Anyhoo, to portray though that going to any of the 3 carriers you mention as a "career ending move" is absurd. It may just be such a move might turn out to be the better move should a merger/acquisition occur there or something that will constrict growth at AA occur which could me you will be a long-term F/O (likely Group II) at AA, while a colleague who left Envoy for one of those carriers is a captain and/or used that to move to a more financially lucrative legacy then AA. Isn't Frontier set to expand rapidly in the future ? Any of those carriers is ripe for Delta to acquire to regain largest carriers status to go along with #1 rank in pilot compensation and treatment. Considering AA is at the back of the financial pack of the legacies, the last consideration is a given should that result materialize. No way to tell whose move was better except at retirement.

    I laugh at the vision of you waving from the right side window of your AA cockpit at a former pal at one of those carriers because IMO the two aircraft would likely be passing in opposite directions and they'd be waving from the left side window. In consideration of that, you may not want to wave your W-2 at him/her though at that time as they'd probably swerve off the taxiway in laughter under such circumstances.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 11-20-2017 at 01:06 PM.

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