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Thread: Frontier Airlines Expansion

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    Frontier Airlines Expansion


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    https://globenewswire.com/news-relea...-AIRCRAFT.html

    Denver, Nov. 15, 2017 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Today Frontier Airlines announced its intent to order 134 A320neo Family aircraft from Airbus, which will triple the size of the low-cost carrier over the next 10 years. Valued at a list price of more than $15 billion, todayís announcement grows Frontierís order book to more than 200 aircraft and means more than five thousand new, highly skilled jobs for the U.S. These aircraft are part of the single largest Airbus order announcement ever made - a 430 aircraft order valued at a $49.5 billion list price by Indigo Partners, Frontierís owner.

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    Less than 2 year upgrade, then to AA off the street...priceless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    Less than 2 year upgrade, then to AA off the street...priceless.
    One question will be eventually who will be the future acquisition partner with them ? That's a huge amount of growth and DEN is a great base, especially if you ski. They'll be challenged for pilots in the future though. But, in the interim a 2 year upgrade on the Bus and much (MUCH) better treatment then the regionals will attract many who will get in at the start of their expansion phase and that's the best time to get on with a carrier. It may be an especially good move for those who are older and coming here right into street captains slots who will have PIC quickly and little invested in Envoy who might benefit overall more from quick transition to mainline equipment and then Captaincy in that equipment vs. scrapping at Envoy 6 years or likely longer and finishing up their final years as an AA F/O which we all know are losers as has been declared by at least one noteworthy character here. Something to consider, at least.

    The most important thing to take from this latest development IMO, is that in the coming years the entire industry will be challenged for pilots and much more opportunity will exist for advancement. This of course, will be especially bad for the regionals whose abilities to get pilots will fall well short as the legacies and LCC's ramp up ops and need for pilots themselves with an increasingly insufficient supply (especially street captains) to backfill into less desirable regional slots. Since the regionals will then eventually be in desperate straits, that will most likely put scheduling abuse on steroids that will only exacerbate attrition further aggravating scheduling abuse even more and a vicious (and likely terminal) cycle develops for the regionals. The regional industry is IMO, presently a house of cards and the only variable in the inevitable is the timing.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 11-15-2017 at 10:34 AM.

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    Looks like Envoy needs to increase their flow to keep attracting new hires.

    An Airbus type and pic time will be more beneficial then waiting out a 7 to 8 year flow for a new hire. Plus we haven't even talked about earning potential between the two scenarios......

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    Unless they add the E75 to
    Group I...it will be imposible to win this battle...Ēthe flow will last forever...pilots wonít wait that long.Ē

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    Incredibly stupid move for someone to leave Envoy to go to Frontier. I could go into a myriad of reasons why and I know most here will come up with a thousand reasons why one should go to Frontier, most of these reasons bogus by the way. The fact is having the flow in your back pocket while applying elsewhere, if thatís your desire, is far preferable than going to a ridiculously risky carrier like Frontier.

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    Wow dacuj doesnít have the energy to spell out why he doesnít think itís a good idea. Thatís just sad. You guys have tired him out.

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    Incredibly stupid move for someone to stay at Envoy and not go to Frontier. I could go into a myriad of reasons why, and I know a few (dacujfish) here will come up with a load of hot air about why one should not go to Frontier, most of these reasons bogus by the way. The fact is having the flow in your back pocket while applying elsewhere (including Frontier), if thatís your desire, is far preferable than waiting around for a ridiculously risky unpredictable thing like "flow."

    We can all play this game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robsquatch View Post
    Wow dacuj doesnít have the energy to spell out why he doesnít think itís a good idea. Thatís just sad. You guys have tired him out.
    Iím not tired out fighting the lies and deception here. I just happen to be working today and am quite busy contributing to floating this big Envoy boat. What are you doing? At home on one of your FOURTEEN days off drinking beer? Must be nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Incredibly stupid move for someone to leave Envoy to go to Frontier. I could go into a myriad of reasons why and I know most here will come up with a thousand reasons why one should go to Frontier, most of these reasons bogus by the way. The fact is having the flow in your back pocket while applying elsewhere, if thatís your desire, is far preferable than going to a ridiculously risky carrier like Frontier.
    2 eagle friends went there, upgraded in a few years and are now at Delta. Meanwhile, I'm here still. Upgraded last year after 8 years as a FO and wont flow for at least another year. Yup. They made a very bad decision to go to Frontier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglepilot View Post
    2 eagle friends went there, upgraded in a few years and are now at Delta. Meanwhile, I'm here still. Upgraded last year after 8 years as a FO and wont flow for at least another year. Yup. They made a very bad decision to go to Frontier.
    How dare them, not trusting and relying on the flow.......

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    No, how dare they go anywhere other than AA, it's the largest nut house in the industry next to envoy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Iím not tired out fighting the lies and deception here. I just happen to be working today and am quite busy contributing to floating this big Envoy boat. What are you doing? At home on one of your FOURTEEN days off drinking beer? Must be nice.
    ...and IMO, this boat will need a lot of "floating" in the future (and perhaps a lot of bailing as well).

    I stated that for some, it might be a great idea to look at Frontier, especially those older and with no ties to an Envoy hub. If they are old enough that by the time they flow to AA in 6 or likely more years and never upgrading to Captain, Frontier might offer a better career and QWL. Likewise, for others, Envoy might be the better gamble. I use the term "gamble" as either move (or ANY move for that matter) on the airline pilot chess board has its risks, some of which are more readily apparent then others. You make a blanket statement that for ALL pilots, Frontier is "ridiculously risky" and/or being a worse move then staying at Envoy in the hope the AA carrot turns out to be edible by the time it's served is prop wash. No absolutes in life and neither is this equation. One could make a strong argument that Frontier treats its pilots far better then what used to be known as 'The poster boy of bad employee relations' and the continued belief by many that nothing substantive has changed in that regard, at least insofar as pilots are concerned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    ...and IMO, this boat will need a lot of "floating" in the future (and perhaps a lot of bailing as well).

    I stated that for some, it might be a great idea to look at Frontier, especially those older and with no ties to an Envoy hub. If they are old enough that by the time they flow to AA in 6 or likely more years and never upgrading to Captain, Frontier might offer a better career and QWL. Likewise, for others, Envoy might be the better gamble. I use the term "gamble" as either move (or ANY move for that matter) on the airline pilot chess board has its risks, some of which are more readily apparent then others. You make a blanket statement that for ALL pilots, Frontier is "ridiculously risky" and/or being a worse move then staying at Envoy in the hope the AA carrot turns out to be edible by the time it's served is prop wash. No absolutes in life and neither is this equation. One could make a strong argument that Frontier treats its pilots far better then what used to be known as 'The poster boy of bad employee relations' and the continued belief by many that nothing substantive has changed in that regard, at least insofar as pilots are concerned.
    More fake news from the master of spin. In your clear, sober headed analysis above, you fail to put odds on one who would leave Envoy for Frontier actually getting to a major. For some here already, few are getting calls. This is a fact. If you leave Envoy, you remove the flow card from your back pocket and burn it. Your odds of getting hired off the street at AA now are essentially less than 1/8th of 1%. I know you can see where I am going now. If you werenít getting calls here from another legacy, thatís unlikely to change at Frontier. And youíve essentially removed AA from the equation. If someone wants to work at Delta or United then thatís their choice. I donít understand it but I choose to remain silent. I will say that AA proves in many ways that working at AA is far superior than either two above.

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    You choose to also remain silent about ANYTHING other than the flow or class numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    More fake news from the master of spin. In your clear, sober headed analysis above, you fail to put odds on one who would leave Envoy for Frontier actually getting to a major. For some here already, few are getting calls. This is a fact. If you leave Envoy, you remove the flow card from your back pocket and burn it. Your odds of getting hired off the street at AA now are essentially less than 1/8th of 1%. I know you can see where I am going now. If you werenít getting calls here from another legacy, thatís unlikely to change at Frontier. And youíve essentially removed AA from the equation. If someone wants to work at Delta or United then thatís their choice. I donít understand it but I choose to remain silent. I will say that AA proves in many ways that working at AA is far superior than either two above.
    In my clear, sober-headed analysis (it's good you acknowledge that, BTW), I didn't need to put odds on older pilots getting to a major because, in part, perhaps in their situation more years as a Captain at Frontier might be both more rewarding in QWL and more lucrative in compensation then less years at a "major" retiring from the right seat. As for other pilots, maybe.......just maybe, their values are not your values (or even mine) and as such, who is to say with certainty what another pilots best situation is ? My point is that Frontier DOES have the potentuial to offer SOME pilots at Envoy more then a long tenure at Envoy followed by a flow to AA. It must also be noted with certainty that Envoy doesn't hold a leg up to any other RJ regional in getting its pilots to the majors, only AA and in the case of many, depending on situation, Frontier may just be the better bet then waiting years to flow to the #3 legacy out of 3 legacy carriers. To also claim that just because a pilot leaves Envoy for Frontier means they take AA out of future consideration is simply more spin on your part. The sun doesn't rise and set at AA my poor, misguided little grifter and attempting to make AA the utopia for all pilots in all non-AA situations is disingenuous at best and outright fabrication at worst. Do some research and you will see that of the "majors", AA runs at the back of the pack in total compensation for pilots and arguably has among the poorest QWL of those carriers and even at least one LCC. That's not likely to change in the future either, at least IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirsnacksalot View Post
    You choose to also remain silent about ANYTHING other than the flow or class numbers.
    The first of which remains an IOU until cashed and the second so far demonstrating it has no value to present Envoy pilots as evidenced by no improvement in QWL nor increase in flow rate. Without those two empty (as of now) factors, there would be no point in him repeatedly pulling that string in his back parroting these two aspects of Envoy which remain bankrupt of benefit for the most part to Envoy pilots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Iím not tired out fighting the lies and deception here. I just happen to be working today and am quite busy contributing to floating this big Envoy boat. What are you doing? At home on one of your FOURTEEN days off drinking beer? Must be nice.
    Lol. You sir are delusional. I wish I had 14, and thatís without having picked up any ot this month. Get back to work and off the boards. Unless that is your work.

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    Oh great. This again. Iím just going to call you what you are if you leave Envoy for Frontier.

    D U M B A * *!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    Oh great. This again. Iím just going to call you what you are if you leave Envoy for Frontier.

    D U M B A * *!
    Yep, I know two of a few that have made this stupid move. Both Colorado natives who are now home based and Captains.
    DUMB A** indeed.

    Trollers gotta troll

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