Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 36 of 36

Thread: Future Envoy Classes

  1. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Company
    o boy
    Job
    Buttonpusherknobtwisterlevermover
    Posts
    188
    Level
    51
    Points: 6,168, Level: 51
    Overall activity: 62.0%
    Achievements:
    Created Album picturesVeteran5000 Experience PointsTagger Second Class
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 24/0
    Given: 66/4

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    FYI. We have a couple of banner classes coming up. Just wait. The negative punditry here will be eating serious crow.
    Found a picture of the most junior person in the latest banner class. Looking like unmetered flow comin!

  2. #22
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    311
    Level
    40
    Points: 3,986, Level: 40
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 17/1
    Given: 0/0

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Pancakes View Post
    Found a picture of the most junior person in the latest banner class. Looking like unmetered flow comin!
    Nice.

  3. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    311
    Level
    40
    Points: 3,986, Level: 40
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 17/1
    Given: 0/0

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkvisual View Post
    Right on but I must clarify. It says 50 percent of every class. Due to operational necessity the company may meter the flow to 25 a month minimum. For operational necessity. Huge difference in the fine print. We are not short staffed anymore. Plus weíre having banners that say record breaking new hire classes.
    Yep. The "operational necessity" excuse is wearing very thin.

    But let's remember they metered flow when they were offering part time and zero time lines, as well.

  4. #24
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Company
    Violin on the Envoy-tanic
    Posts
    13
    Level
    2
    Points: 135, Level: 2
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    31 days registered100 Experience Points
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 2/0
    Given: 1/2

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    You want some negative punditry? Iíll give you some. I talked to a new hire off IOE in the crew room a few weeks ago. Crew services claimed he had been overpaid, and had given him TWO $0 dollar pay checks in a row. He was broke, his electricity was about to be shut off, his daycare charged him an exorbitant late fee for missing his payment, and he was just about ready to quit. I got him to talk to the union right away to try and resolve the problem. First, itís ILLEGAL for them to give him a $0 paycheck, second they are supposed to work out a repayment schedule with the employee, and third apparently no one in crew services had the authority to cut him a special issuance check! Oh they can take, but they canít give back when they screw up! The next week I talked to him and he said he was going to the office to turn in his stuff, donít know if he did actually quit. Congratulations, this company has figured out how to screw even the new guys hard enough to make them want to leave. This is exactly the kind of QOL BS that we talk about. How are you going to spin that, flipper?

  5. #25
    Registered User BOHICA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    449
    Level
    45
    Points: 4,976, Level: 45
    Overall activity: 45.0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsOverdriveVeteran
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 61/1
    Given: 23/0

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Ignore it.

  6. #26
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,329
    Level
    75
    Points: 13,469, Level: 75
    Overall activity: 22.0%
    Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 42/18
    Given: 45/4

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTrinityDawn View Post
    You want some negative punditry? Iíll give you some. I talked to a new hire off IOE in the crew room a few weeks ago. Crew services claimed he had been overpaid, and had given him TWO $0 dollar pay checks in a row. He was broke, his electricity was about to be shut off, his daycare charged him an exorbitant late fee for missing his payment, and he was just about ready to quit. I got him to talk to the union right away to try and resolve the problem. First, itís ILLEGAL for them to give him a $0 paycheck, second they are supposed to work out a repayment schedule with the employee, and third apparently no one in crew services had the authority to cut him a special issuance check! Oh they can take, but they canít give back when they screw up! The next week I talked to him and he said he was going to the office to turn in his stuff, donít know if he did actually quit. Congratulations, this company has figured out how to screw even the new guys hard enough to make them want to leave. This is exactly the kind of QOL BS that we talk about. How are you going to spin that, flipper?
    That's when the new hire grows a spine, calls pay comp, quote the contract and state "you have 7 days to cut me a new check or I'll be suing."

  7. #27
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    53
    Level
    38
    Points: 3,772, Level: 38
    Overall activity: 34.0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 3/0
    Given: 0/1

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    Even the most die hard haters here should agree that huge class numbers are the way to true 50% flow. Translation: Itís in the numbers stupid.
    You sure about that? Seems the company wants to put growth before flowing more.

    If the company wanted true growth and a healthy flow, they would increase the flow as the new hire numbers are increasing. Instead, they have reached record number of new hires and the metering remains in tact. Hire 100 this month? Flow 50 next month. Then guys would be excited about what's going on here. Until then, the more things change, the more they remain the same.

  8. #28
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,372
    Level
    52
    Points: 6,454, Level: 52
    Overall activity: 99.9%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 196/8
    Given: 0/42

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by eaglepilot View Post
    That's when the new hire grows a spine, calls pay comp, quote the contract and state "you have 7 days to cut me a new check or I'll be suing."
    They know new-hires know they are on probation and the ďAssociationĒ has little power to protect them. Then again, I think considering this Associationís so-called leadership is itself infested with invertebrates addicted to managementís flow-thru drug, they know most non-probationary pilots canít really be protected either. One only needs to soberingly look at your now Swiss-cheese contract to see evidence of that.

  9. #29
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,372
    Level
    52
    Points: 6,454, Level: 52
    Overall activity: 99.9%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 196/8
    Given: 0/42

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr mojo View Post
    You sure about that? Seems the company wants to put growth before flowing more.

    If the company wanted true growth and a healthy flow, they would increase the flow as the new hire numbers are increasing. Instead, they have reached record number of new hires and the metering remains in tact. Hire 100 this month? Flow 50 next month. Then guys would be excited about what's going on here. Until then, the more things change, the more they remain the same.
    Those who are keen students of history know that the flow-thru (in all its methodologies) historically rarely, if ever flowed a single pilot to AA one day sooner then absolutely necessary. Doesnít matter how many come to Envoy in new-hire classes now, the trickle-thru will in all likelihood continue to drip at minimum possible rate. I think they know or suspect the present spurt of new-hires will go flaccid at some point in the future and are stockpiling ACMís (Aircraft Control Manipulators) here for when the rainy days of regional pilot availability inevitably arrives.

  10. #30
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    73
    Level
    10
    Points: 518, Level: 10
    Overall activity: 28.0%
    Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 6/0
    Given: 0/0

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    How about a banner flow thru class?

  11. #31
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    141
    Level
    41
    Points: 4,348, Level: 41
    Overall activity: 56.0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteranOverdrive
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 6/0
    Given: 5/1

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Damn, I thought this thread was going to be about envoy getting into the Banner Towing business.

  12. #32
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    53
    Level
    38
    Points: 3,772, Level: 38
    Overall activity: 34.0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 3/0
    Given: 0/1

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Those who are keen students of history know that the flow-thru (in all its methodologies) historically rarely, if ever flowed a single pilot to AA one day sooner then absolutely necessary. Doesnít matter how many come to Envoy in new-hire classes now, the trickle-thru will in all likelihood continue to drip at minimum possible rate. I think they know or suspect the present spurt of new-hires will go flaccid at some point in the future and are stockpiling ACMís (Aircraft Control Manipulators) here for when the rainy days of regional pilot availability inevitably arrives.
    You say things with in a such way that other might believe they are factual. When in reality you are on the other end of the spin spectrum, opposite of Dacuj.

    One example, Dec 2013 was 100% envoy flow. There are other examples. But big picture, I agree, they won't flow many more than required. From time to time there will be exceptions. Strike, "if ever" , "trickle through" and I'm on the same page. Envoy is the largest group of new hires at AA. Almost every class to date. There were some exceptions to this. But in the total piece of the pie view, this is true. In fact, envoy flow is larger then the next three hiring groups combined, including military streets hires.

  13. #33
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,372
    Level
    52
    Points: 6,454, Level: 52
    Overall activity: 99.9%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 196/8
    Given: 0/42

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr mojo View Post
    You say things with in a such way that other might believe they are factual. When in reality you are on the other end of the spin spectrum, opposite of Dacuj.

    One example, Dec 2013 was 100% envoy flow. There are other examples. But big picture, I agree, they won't flow many more than required. From time to time there will be exceptions. Strike, "if ever" , "trickle through" and I'm on the same page. Envoy is the largest group of new hires at AA. Almost every class to date. There were some exceptions to this. But in the total piece of the pie view, this is true. In fact, envoy flow is larger then the next three hiring groups combined, including military streets hires.
    Spin ? You mean I'm just like Dacuj, but in opposition ? Hmmm...................

    Ok, well first of all, you'll note.....well, others should note as clearly you don't that I was careful to use those terms to prevent claims of exactly that as without them I WOULD be claiming absolutes when they don't exist and it is THAT that is considered "spin", which is EXACTLY what Dacuj does. You're inverting reality, but that is the new normal in our world now and a significant percentage of humans wandering about this rock cannot differentiate reality anymore. As for spin, let's examine what YOU are saying shall we ? First, I think it's deflectory and disingenuous (which many would call "spin") to compare what Envoy is flowing compared to others as that has nothing to do with Envoy's OWN LOA provisions of flow and the fact is in that regard, it IS flowing at minimal possible rate, so no spin there on my part. I'm comparing the same apples in the barrel, while you appear to be looking over the entire fruit stand. BUT, looking even further over that fruit stand as you seem to think most important, in comparing Envoy's flow to the other two groups, yes it is larger, but so Is Envoy, so when compared to the other groups by pilot force and a percentage of monthly flow, the METERED rate of Envoy flowing about 275 pilots/year vs. the others, it is really fairly close in comparison or at the very least MUCH closer then you are inferring (or some would say "spinning"). Finally, you note a claim of 100% Envoy flow in December 2013, but I have to ask was that a "true up" and if so, then that would mean some deserving Envoy pilots got shafted with the loss of AA seniority by delay and that would be no spin there.

    We obviously see "reality" from different perspectives on this issue and I just choose to look objectively at the relevant comparisons instead of what I think is chaff, that being what Envoy flows compared to what the spirit of the LOA allows (especially considering the massive influx of pilots being frequently trumpeted) and compared to what it has done in the past. At present the flow is a "trickle" at least IMO, considering it is run at the slowest possible rate (and just last month not at all) and has done so for virtually all of its existence. If you want to rationalize X or Y in the hope of belief all is going well with the flow, that's your prerogative, but IMO that's simply denial. I realize for some though, it's the only way to get through the days, months and years, so I understand.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 11-14-2017 at 10:57 AM.

  14. #34
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    53
    Level
    38
    Points: 3,772, Level: 38
    Overall activity: 34.0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 3/0
    Given: 0/1

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Spin ? You mean I'm just like Dacuj, but in opposition ? Hmmm...................

    Ok, well first of all, you'll note.....well, others should note as clearly you don't that I was careful to use those terms to prevent claims of exactly that as without them I WOULD be claiming absolutes when they don't exist and it is THAT that is considered "spin", which is EXACTLY what Dacuj does. You're inverting reality, but that is the new normal in our world now and a significant percentage of humans wandering about this rock cannot differentiate reality anymore. As for spin, let's examine what YOU are saying shall we ? First, I think it's deflectory and disingenuous (which many would call "spin") to compare what Envoy is flowing compared to others as that has nothing to do with Envoy's OWN LOA provisions of flow and the fact is in that regard, it IS flowing at minimal possible rate, so no spin there on my part. I'm comparing the same apples in the barrel, while you appear to be looking over the entire fruit stand. BUT, looking even further over that fruit stand as you seem to think most important, in comparing Envoy's flow to the other two groups, yes it is larger, but so Is Envoy, so when compared to the other groups by pilot force and a percentage of monthly flow, the METERED rate of Envoy flowing about 275 pilots/year vs. the others, it is really fairly close in comparison or at the very least MUCH closer then you are inferring (or some would say "spinning"). Finally, you note a claim of 100% Envoy flow in December 2013, but I have to ask was that a "true up" and if so, then that would mean some deserving Envoy pilots got shafted with the loss of AA seniority by delay and that would be no spin there.

    We obviously see "reality" from different perspectives on this issue and I just choose to look objectively at the relevant comparisons instead of what I think is chaff, that being what Envoy flows compared to what the spirit of the LOA allows (especially considering the massive influx of pilots being frequently trumpeted) and compared to what it has done in the past. At present the flow is a "trickle" at least IMO, considering it is run at the slowest possible rate (and just last month not at all) and has done so for virtually all of its existence. If you want to rationalize X or Y in the hope of belief all is going well with the flow, that's your prerogative, but IMO that's simply denial. I realize for some though, it's the only way to get through the days, months and years, so I understand.
    I only compared the flow to other groups because you call it a trickle through. By your standard, anyone wanting to go to AA by other means will have to pass through a closed spigot. But I agree Envoy is flowing at a minimum rate. That's reality and all who play should understand the rules of the game. This is where Dacuj can't see the forest.


    So here is another example of your spin on facts. You said, "...in comparing Envoy's flow to the other two groups, yes it is larger, but so Is Envoy" Envoy is ~2100 pilots large, The regional airline pilot group is ~19,000. By your account the other regional airline pilot hiring at AA should be nearly 5 times that of Envoy. Just the facts sir



    No Dec 2013 wasn't a true up. Not saying it was good will by the company either.

    For the record, Metering during record hiring is complete crap

  15. #35
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,372
    Level
    52
    Points: 6,454, Level: 52
    Overall activity: 99.9%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 196/8
    Given: 0/42

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr mojo View Post
    I only compared the flow to other groups because you call it a trickle through. By your standard, anyone wanting to go to AA by other means will have to pass through a closed spigot. But I agree Envoy is flowing at a minimum rate. That's reality and all who play should understand the rules of the game. This is where Dacuj can't see the forest.


    So here is another example of your spin on facts. You said, "...in comparing Envoy's flow to the other two groups, yes it is larger, but so Is Envoy" Envoy is ~2100 pilots large, The regional airline pilot group is ~19,000. By your account the other regional airline pilot hiring at AA should be nearly 5 times that of Envoy. Just the facts sir



    No Dec 2013 wasn't a true up. Not saying it was good will by the company either.

    For the record, Metering during record hiring is complete crap
    19,000 ? You lost me. Iím only aware of 3 airlines with flow-through to AA. Youíre not including the entire regional industry in evaluating Envoyís execution of the flow are you ? If so, I misunderstood you and then that would not just be looking at the entire fruit stand, it would be including every fruit field that produces fruit and that would be EPIC spin in my book. Ok, If you compare what source puts the most pilots in any given new-hire class, Envoy wins, but that isn't the correct way to look at whether Envoy pilots are getting what was in the spirit of the LOA, but instead, still getting minimum possible ROI. Also, if you say December 2013 was not a true-up and Iíll take your word, but Envoy HAS done this, yes ? Itís another example of tightening the spigot for oneís sides benefit and in fact, that spigot was completely shut off last month as it should be considered in the future just as the past.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 11-14-2017 at 01:25 PM.

  16. #36
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Company
    envoy
    Job
    First Officer soon to be Captain
    A/C Flown
    E175!
    Posts
    45
    Level
    7
    Points: 399, Level: 7
    Overall activity: 11.0%
    Achievements:
    250 Experience Points3 months registered
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 0/0
    Given: 0/0

    Ignore User

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    How about his sign in bonus? He blew it away?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •