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Thread: Piedmont or Envoy for quicker career progression

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    Piedmont or Envoy for quicker career progression


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    I have interviews scheduled at both Piedmont and Envoy. I'm trying to determine which of the two would likely be a shorter path to the majors. This is a second/third career. I'm not trying to rush anything, but I do want to be intentional and efficient in my career progression.


    • I don't have a degree, but estimate I'll have it completed in 2.5-3 years from now.
    • I will start applying to the majors (outside the flow) as soon as I'm nearing competitive qualifications.
    • I'm going in with ATP minimums, not much more. No turbine time, minimal MEL.
    • Piedmont class would start in March. I could make an Envoy class in December.
    • I'll move to be near the domicile instead of commuting. I'm relatively indifferent to domicile; none are places I particularly love or hate.


    Seems that both will allow you to upgrade as soon as you're eligible, so no clear advantage there.

    My understanding is that Piedmont has no reserve and a lot of flying, which sounds like a jump start on building 121/turbine time. However, the next class Piedmont has available is March (I could make the December class for Envoy) and there is said to be a one month gap in Piedmont's training pipeline. So, I'm not sure which pathway will build competitive experience quicker.


    • Which (Piedmont starting March or Envoy starting December) is likely to result in a quicker entry into a mainline carrier?
    • What if a person is willing to take on a role outside of flying (recruiting, instructing, mentoring, etc). Is that equally available at either airline?
    • Is either Piedmont or Envoy considered more reputable to the hiring authorities of major airlines?
    • Which would you go with if you were starting over and you had no preference for domicile/airframe? Why?


    Thank you for reading, and for any responses.

    -WU
    Last edited by wheelsup; 11-02-2017 at 01:10 AM.

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    Envoy.

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    envoy-

    Quick upgrades
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    Flow- NO interview to AA

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelsup View Post
    I have interviews scheduled at both Piedmont and Envoy. I'm trying to determine which of the two would likely be a shorter path to the majors. This is a second/third career. I'm not trying to rush anything, but I do want to be intentional and efficient in my career progression.


    • I don't have a degree, but estimate I'll have it completed in 2.5-3 years from now.
    • I will start applying to the majors (outside the flow) as soon as I'm nearing competitive qualifications.
    • I'm going in with ATP minimums, not much more. No turbine time, minimal MEL.
    • Piedmont class would start in March. I could make an Envoy class in December.
    • I'll move to be near the domicile instead of commuting. I'm relatively indifferent to domicile; none are places I particularly love or hate.


    Seems that both will allow you to upgrade as soon as you're eligible, so no clear advantage there.

    My understanding is that Piedmont has no reserve and a lot of flying, which sounds like a jump start on building 121/turbine time. However, the next class Piedmont has available is March (I could make the December class for Envoy) and there is said to be a one month gap in Piedmont's training pipeline. So, I'm not sure which pathway will build competitive experience quicker.


    • Which (Piedmont starting March or Envoy starting December) is likely to result in a quicker entry into a mainline carrier?
    • What if a person is willing to take on a role outside of flying (recruiting, instructing, mentoring, etc). Is that equally available at either airline?
    • Is either Piedmont or Envoy considered more reputable to the hiring authorities of major airlines?
    • Which would you go with if you were starting over and you had no preference for domicile/airframe? Why?


    Thank you for reading, and for any responses.

    -WU
    Envoy. All the way. Many, many many reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by E175ERAUDriver View Post
    envoy-

    Quick upgrades
    Sign in Bonus
    E175
    Flow- NO interview to AA
    I don't get sign in bonuses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelsup View Post
    I have interviews scheduled at both Piedmont and Envoy. I'm trying to determine which of the two would likely be a shorter path to the majors. This is a second/third career. I'm not trying to rush anything, but I do want to be intentional and efficient in my career progression.


    • I don't have a degree, but estimate I'll have it completed in 2.5-3 years from now.
    • I will start applying to the majors (outside the flow) as soon as I'm nearing competitive qualifications.
    • I'm going in with ATP minimums, not much more. No turbine time, minimal MEL.
    • Piedmont class would start in March. I could make an Envoy class in December.
    • I'll move to be near the domicile instead of commuting. I'm relatively indifferent to domicile; none are places I particularly love or hate.


    Seems that both will allow you to upgrade as soon as you're eligible, so no clear advantage there.

    My understanding is that Piedmont has no reserve and a lot of flying, which sounds like a jump start on building 121/turbine time. However, the next class Piedmont has available is March (I could make the December class for Envoy) and there is said to be a one month gap in Piedmont's training pipeline. So, I'm not sure which pathway will build competitive experience quicker.


    • Which (Piedmont starting March or Envoy starting December) is likely to result in a quicker entry into a mainline carrier?
    • What if a person is willing to take on a role outside of flying (recruiting, instructing, mentoring, etc). Is that equally available at either airline?
    • Is either Piedmont or Envoy considered more reputable to the hiring authorities of major airlines?
    • Which would you go with if you were starting over and you had no preference for domicile/airframe? Why?


    Thank you for reading, and for any responses.

    -WU
    That's a very professionally presented post, including your use of bullet points and organization. Reminds me of a regional airlines recruiting ad. In all honesty though, you do realize this is for all intents and purposes an Envoy pilots forum (or those who've previously worked there or its predecessor carrier), so some of the answers you get will be biased. To wit, at least two of those already offered are of dubious objectivity and one is from a myopically delusional recruiter or someone performing lapdog duties for those who are (or so he alludes to) with a long history of blatant misrepresentation of the realities of Envoy. There are at least two others (although all of them might be the same person). On that point, one must also note that there are some nefarious characters out there known to post as phony pilots to use as a springboard for recruiting spin, much like a Russian "Troll Farm" developed to spread fake news, so don't take it personally if some question your validity. Sadly, it's simply the new world we live in.

    Anyway, on the assumption you are valid, if by your accounts most aspects of either of the two carriers are neutral in your considerations, neither carrier has an edge on "reputability" among major airlines and that includes AA. Right now, Piedmont is representing flow to AA at "about" 5 years which is equal to or better then Envoy, but both must be taken with a grain of salt as one could outpace the other in the future. As such, which could get you into class sooner really shouldn't be considered as what will get you to either AA or another "major" faster. One area that IMO favors Piedmont over Envoy is in QWL while you are serving your time at the regional level as from reports by many Envoy pilots, Envoy's QWL is arguably among the poorest of the larger regional RJ operators and even significantly worse then some smaller turboprop operators if their pilot reports are to believed, like PenAir as one previous Envoy pilot described. My advice would be to talk directly to pilots at both carriers to remove the input of biased scam artists who will give you misleading information and make your decision from there. Admittedly, I don't work at Envoy, but know enough to feel comfortable giving you my opinion you should base your decisions on direct face-to-face contact with both present Piedmont and Envoy pilots for the best info. Considering the focus of your inquiry, why are you not considering PSA as they too are in the same boat as Piedmont and Envoy ?

    Good luck with whatever decision you make.

    Since you're supposedly new here, might I suggest reviewing some of the threads here to better understand why this forum should not be considered your primary source for Envoy info ?
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 11-02-2017 at 09:29 AM.

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    I have and will say this again. Envoy, as it stands right now, is the best regional choice out there. Three years ago Iíd tell you to run for the hills. But.... considering this forum is only known by envoy pilots unlike apc and how you set it up for a hr like game 6, I do believe itís one of the first 3 or 4 commenters using another new screename.

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    Piedmont. Thier QOL is better than Envoy's, mainly due to envoy's atrocious reserve system. I also believe Piedmont's fow is a lot faster than Envoy's. If you're moving to base, and don't care what airplane you fly then I would say Piedmont, for those reasons stated above only. I work for Eaglevoy, and would love to have you under me in seniority, but the facts are the facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Griff312 View Post
    Piedmont. Thier QOL is better than Envoy's, mainly due to envoy's atrocious reserve system. I also believe Piedmont's fow is a lot faster than Envoy's. If you're moving to base, and don't care what airplane you fly then I would say Piedmont, for those reasons stated above only. I work for Eaglevoy, and would love to have you under me in seniority, but the facts are the facts.
    This. PDT also has 300-400% O.T. my buddy over there showed me a stub of 150+ Hrs of credit. this is impossible at ENY.
    more money
    faster flow

    ENY's flow is currently being violated by the company. The 50% of AA hires we got is NOT being honored with the company sending only 25/month. There is a grievance on this but we all know how that works.

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    PDT has mostly only 2 days off between sequences for what that's worth.

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    Having been through a few airlines and two financial meltdowns I would say in the long run stick with the points that are most concrete. Remember that flow, overtime, even days off are fluid. If you are looking to primarily get the time in....ultimately it will not make much more diffference than a minute amount of time from carrier to carrier in terms of progression to the hours you are looking for.

    in the long run..you are looking at building time. I would also look at commute. I would look at solid operation. How does the company communicate to its pilot group? I can also tell you that the union might work in your best interest, it may not. Ask the pilot group. Ask guys that are on the line who are there. Don't rely on what anyone tells you (including myself) because in the end you will be most affected by things that the guys out there are experiencing every day...not by what a message board tells you. As for myself...quality of life is in balance with the ability to get from point A to point B, a paycheck that doesn't bounce, and my maintenance staff keeping the machine under my a$$ in solid working order. good luck
    Last edited by johnzonh; 11-02-2017 at 12:43 PM.

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    figure out what your min flow time will be. Start by finding out how many pilots are on the seniority list.
    2. Divide that by the min flow rate for each airline. Make sure you look at the details for the different groups. Envoy is currently 50% of the new hires per class metered to 25/mo through the protected pilots. After the protected pilots the ratio goes down.

    AA has stated they want to hire 900 next year. Historically they miss their number by 10%. The have on avg 2 classes a month with none in December. So...
    Each class will have about 41 people in it. 1st class of the month will have about 20 Envoy flows and the 2nd class of the month will have ~5. 25x11=275 pilots from Envoy will flow in the next 12 months. Canít speak for Piedmont

    Iíve really enjoyed Envoy but the relationship between scheduling and pilots is at best described as caustic. QOL is hugely important and set yourself up so if you get stuck at that airline you will have a good life.
    Last edited by Jdflyer; 11-02-2017 at 07:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdflyer View Post
    figure out what your min flow time will be. Start by finding out how many pilots are on the seniority list.
    2. Divide that by the min flow rate for each airline. Make sure you look at the details for the different groups. Envoy is currently 50% of the new hires per class metered to 35/mo through the protected pilots. After the protected pilots the ratio goes down.

    AA has stated they want to hire 900 next year. Historically they miss their number by 10%. The have on avg 2 classes a month with none in December. So...
    Each class will have about 41 people in it. 1st class of the month will have about 20 Envoy flows and the 2nd class of the month will have ~5. 25x11=275 pilots from Envoy will flow in the next 12 months. Canít speak for Piedmont

    Iíve really enjoyed Envoy but the relationship between scheduling and pilots is at best described as caustic. QOL is hugely important and set yourself up so if you get stuck at that airline you will have a good life.
    Good post. I'm sure it's a typo, but important: metered to 25/mo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
    Good post. I'm sure it's a typo, but important: metered to 25/mo.
    Posted from my phone so yes itís 25 and I corrected it in the above post. Thanks eddie
    Last edited by Jdflyer; 11-02-2017 at 07:38 PM.

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    Thank you for your detailed reply Beagleboy. I'll respond in-line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    In all honesty though, you do realize this is for all intents and purposes an Envoy pilots forum (or those who've previously worked there or its predecessor carrier), so some of the answers you get will be biased.
    I didn't, but came to realize that shortly after the first couple replies

    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Piedmont is representing flow to AA at "about" 5 years which is equal to or better then Envoy, but both must be taken with a grain of salt as one could outpace the other in the future. As such, which could get you into class sooner really shouldn't be considered as what will get you to either AA or another "major" faster.
    From what I can gather, for someone entering now, Piedmont flow is 5-6 years and Envoy is something like 7-9 years. (Anyone with more accurate numbers, feel free to chime in.) If I have to depend on the flow, it's a clear choice. I'll take Piedmont.

    Hopefully, though, I can beat the flow. This would require that I finish my degree on schedule OR the airlines stop requiring a degree (AND nothing else exists that would stop me from getting/passing an interview). In that case, if I can beat the flow, I would like to know the quickest path to do so. That's where I become concerned with Piedmont's class dates and training delays. I'm not sure which of the two would make me a marketable candidate sooner: Envoy starting right away, or Piedmont with a start date a few months later. Would a shorter reserve at Piedmont (if it exists) make up the difference in delays? Would Piedmont provide more opportunity for resume-building roles that will cancel out the fewer hours I would have due to training delays?

    I realize that a few months here or there might seem insignificant, but delaying entry into the majors comes with an opportunity cost of probably $25k-35k per month.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    One area that IMO favors Piedmont over Envoy is in QWL while you are serving your time at the regional level as from reports by many Envoy pilots, Envoy's QWL is arguably among the poorest of the larger regional RJ operators and even significantly worse then some smaller turboprop operators if their pilot reports are to believed, like PenAir as one previous Envoy pilot described.
    Ouch. I've heard less than stellar things about both. Envoy's reserve system, and Piedmont's schedules. It's hard to separate the signal from the noise, though!

    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Considering the focus of your inquiry, why are you not considering PSA as they too are in the same boat as Piedmont and Envoy ?
    I was attracted to Piedmont's quick flow and quick upgrades and Envoy's higher bonus and quick upgrades. PSA seemed to be close in-trail, but I didn't initially notice anything stand-out about them. I see now that the PSA's QOL is likely the best of the three. Perhaps I should be giving them a more thorough look.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Good luck with whatever decision you make.

    Since you're supposedly new here, might I suggest reviewing some of the threads here to better understand why this forum should not be considered your primary source for Envoy info ?
    Thanks! I'll look around a bit!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Envoy. All the way. Many, many many reasons.
    I'd love to fly a 175 out of DFW, and the extra $5k in bonus would be appreciated, but those are all relatively low on my list. For someone who doesn't care all that much about airframe, domicile, or a difference of $5k, what does Envoy offer that Piedmont doesn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Griff312 View Post
    Piedmont. Thier QOL is better than Envoy's, mainly due to envoy's atrocious reserve system. I also believe Piedmont's fow is a lot faster than Envoy's. If you're moving to base, and don't care what airplane you fly then I would say Piedmont, for those reasons stated above only. I work for Eaglevoy, and would love to have you under me in seniority, but the facts are the facts.
    Thanks for the input!
    Last edited by wheelsup; 11-05-2017 at 10:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirsnacksalot View Post
    PDT has mostly only 2 days off between sequences for what that's worth.
    I assume that's worse than is typical. I believe Piedmont and Envoy both have a minimum of 11 days off minimum per month. Are the lines at Envoy built better, to allow for more consecutive days off?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkvisual View Post
    I have and will say this again. Envoy, as it stands right now, is the best regional choice out there.
    In your opinion, what advantages does Envoy have that Piedmont doesn't (for those that aren't particularly concerned with domicile or airframe)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jdflyer View Post
    Iíve really enjoyed Envoy but the relationship between scheduling and pilots is at best described as caustic. QOL is hugely important and set yourself up so if you get stuck at that airline you will have a good life.
    Thank you for the post! I've heard complaints from both. It sounds Piedmont and Envoy both have room for improvement.

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