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Thread: Endeavor TA

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Dacuj is the type that does not play well with others in the sand box, when he gets upset, he takes his toys and huffs home to mommy ricky.
    Actually, I think it's conceivable he's here because he has a job to do. His problem then would be he does it poorly, alienating the majority and making few converts. IMO, someone is needed who is a little more professional, respectful, savvy and capable. Perhaps it's time for a career move into new-hire coordination, data compilation and coffee maker maintenance ? I think those would good on his updated management resume, especially a coffee maker qualification as those are always in demand.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 10-05-2017 at 03:20 PM.

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    As I have said countless times here before, I’m not miserable. I’m glad I work here. I’ve pointed out the numerous good things over and over along with the bad. But we’re all gonna call you out when you lie/blow smoke up everyone’s arses.

    You and Fin just can’t get it through your head that you’d have SO much more credibility if along with the good, you’d acknowledge the bad. The used car salesman routine lends zero credibility. For example, if you would’ve just said “wow, the EDV TA has massive gains in both financial and QOL incentives. AAG should act accordingly to stay competitive” that’d be sincere. Instead, you went the “meh...that TA isn’t worth anything because it doesn’t have flow”. Not credible, bud. Salesman talk. But I have to admit ol’ boy, you are singlehandedly the source of all our entertainment here on Talk Airline.


    You bash me for the information I put out but then talk out of both sides of your mouth. You hate it here and make it plainly obvious day in and day out with your rantings and now are drooling over Endeavor's TA. Then when I simply ask why don't you go to Endeavor, you turn around and say that you like it here. Hypocrisy at it's peak.

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    Are you saying the this pilot group should not ask for at least parity with the endeavor ta, that they should shut up and go play in the corner on a time out.

    Time is running out for aag and ALL w/o's. Dacuj, you heard it here first or did they mention that in that meeting today, first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Are you saying the this pilot group should not ask for at least parity with the endeavor ta, that they should shut up and go play in the corner on a time out.

    Time is running out for aag and ALL w/o's. Dacuj, you heard it here first or did they mention that in that meeting today, first.
    Yep. I’m betting that sooner rather than later Endeavor gets a true flow, paired with industry leading work rules and pay. Then AAG will be proper f#cked. Look at the recent raise the AA pilot group got - it wasn’t out of the goodness of AAG’s heart it was self preservation!
    Warlord of the crewroom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post


    You bash me for the information I put out but then talk out of both sides of your mouth. You hate it here and make it plainly obvious day in and day out with your rantings and now are drooling over Endeavor's TA. Then when I simply ask why don't you go to Endeavor, you turn around and say that you like it here. Hypocrisy at it's peak.
    So I guess I just need to act like everything is 100% fine here, absolutely zero problems, zero need for any kind of improvements, and act like we have everything, not act like we deserve financial or QOL that the EDV TA brings. Gotcha. That's like saying if we ever bad mouth or complain about any of today's issues facing our country that we must hate America and should move. I know that you'd prefer the communist style of "you will only say good things about the motherland!!!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post

    Then when I simply ask why don't you go to Endeavor...
    It's not necessarily about current Envoy pilots jumping ship to go to Endeavor, but about the extremely limited pool of potential new hires who can now make a significantly higher wage and have a better quality of life all with a very decent shot at getting hired on with Delta through their program, and a slightly less decent shot at getting hired ANYWHERE else, because...have you seen the retirement numbers?!

    You've said it yourself "WE NEED THE NEW HIRES" ...well...then we need the pay and QOL to get them here, and the flow to keep them here.
    Last edited by Pancakes; 10-05-2017 at 08:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancakes View Post
    It's not necessarily about current Envoy pilots jumping ship to go to Endeavor, but about the extremely limited pool of potential new hires who can now make a significantly higher wage and have a better quality of life all with a very decent shot at getting hired on with Delta through their program, and a slightly less decent shot at getting hired ANYWHERE else, because...have you seen the retirement numbers?!

    You've said it yourself "WE NEED THE NEW HIRES" ...well...then we need the pay and QOL to get them here, and the flow to keep them here.
    Winner winner chicken dinner! But I fear it’s going to have to go back to hiring 20/month while losing 40/month or whatever it was back around the end of 2015 before AAG is going to pull it's head out of the sand.
    Warlord of the crewroom.

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    It's just this side of worthless to try and debate with you. Now, I've had an extremely long day at the office, doing work you understand. And I'm about to head home to a double gin and tonic. So we will leave this here for another time.

  9. #49
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    Late for you isn’t it? Are they worried over in Mos Eisley, I mean Irving?
    Warlord of the crewroom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    It's just this side of worthless to try and debate with you. Now, I've had an extremely long day at the office, doing work you understand. And I'm about to head home to a double gin and tonic. So we will leave this here for another time.
    Just let me wrap my head around this... Are you AGAINST Envoy matching Endeavor's pay and/or work rules? Because that's the feeling we (actual line pilots) are getting. Which makes ZERO sense.

  11. #51
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    In a word, yes. That's what he and management are saying.

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    Somebody is starting a spreadsheet of pay comparisons:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...djMFo/htmlview

    Source:
    https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/e...-republic.html

    *Not me, I’m not responsible for any errors. But it is interesting.
    Warlord of the crewroom.

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    Actually if not mistaken, the pipeline and cadet program is only 11k and 17k one time so edv total pay is actually more.

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    Dacuj will surely shoot this down as #fakenews. The #flow is worth at least $1Million and a goodnight kiss on a long layover.

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    They are in a huddle in Irving figuring a response. My guess they will act as if edv ta did not happen and hope envoy pilots forget about it.

    Where is the mec.

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    As I glanced over the google doc it seemed as if pay was very similar. Almost too similar. Then I noticed that it shows fos at envoy getting 20k in bonus every year. That doesn’t sound right. Looks like if there are no other errors they are making about 10k more than us as fos and about 20k more a year as captains. Glad we have flow. Who made this doc I wonder? Is that why dacuj was so tired after a long day?

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    Yeah that spreadsheet has an error of calculating a $20k bonus in year 2 and year 3 instead of $20k paid out over year 2 and 3 ($10k a year for 2 years).

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    The spreadsheet has been updated now to reflect the correct bonus structure for Envoy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Where is the mec.
    October 6th , 2017

    Fellow Pilots,

    On Wednesday, the Endeavor Air pilots concluded 18-month negotiations and a nearly 5-year struggle to regain the contractual provisions lost in bankruptcy and released a long-anticipated Tentative Agreement (TA) (here). We are incredibly proud of our Endeavor colleagues for staying the course over a difficult period. While the Endeavor pilots ultimately will decide the fate of their TA, their example is an opportunity for all regional airlines to capitalize on.

    First, a brief history for our newer pilots: Endeavor (formerly Pinnacle before a merger with Mesaba, and Colgan) was in bankruptcy and in dire financial straits. Delta offered them a lifeline, but only if the pilots accepted considerable concessions that brought their economics below the then-current market. The Endeavor pilots, in the wake of Comair's closure in the months prior, begrudgingly capitulated and inked the concessionary contract.

    Shortly thereafter, Delta reminded the world of a provision contained in all of their Capacity Purchase Agreements (CPAs) that – speaking broadly – mandated all other CPAs 'snapped' to the costs of the lowest cost provider within a specified timeframe. This effectively set Delta's regional costs lower than the market. Naturally, the other brands would be inclined to renegotiate regional costs wherever possible.

    In early 2013, immediately after "successfully" emerging from bankruptcy without draconian cuts to our contact, the former President of American Airlines, Scott Kirby, told Envoy that "the world had changed" in response to Delta's actions. What followed was the new American management team, eager to "compete" (match) Endeavor's new cost structure, demanding economic concessions that brought Envoy in line with Endeavor.

    The problem with their plan was that the Envoy pilots were already promised a stable future with our own bankruptcy contract. As 2013 progressed, we watched Endeavor lose upwards of 100 pilots per month at the same exact time concessionary talks were being forced back upon us. What naturally transpired shortly after was our own unprecedented anger and attrition. Envoy pilots turned the Company down not once, but twice; and from there endured the Company's sharpened rhetoric, which even went so far as to envision our carrier becoming the "next Comair".

    AAG management then turned their attention to PSA and Piedmont, offering a mix of promises and threats to force them into economic alignment with Endeavor. Both of the other wholly owned airlines made deals, leaving Envoy the outlier.

    With clear lines drawn – in late 2014 the Envoy pilots eventually voted to approve the "TA", which is the CBA under which we currently live.

    After several months of attrition from 75-100 pilots per month at both Endeavor and Envoy, and with both airlines experiencing monthly hiring totals that could be counted on one hand; things began to change. Flights were canceling, managers were getting nervous, and it was becoming self-evident that cost-cutting had gone too far. Endeavor pivoted, and again led the industry by enhancing pilot compensation via temporary bonuses. From there – during a period of LOAs, LOUs, bonuses, pomp and circumstance designed to prop up the failed economic model – Envoy pilots (and indeed all regional players) found ourselves in a regional environment that was rapidly correcting the industry's overplayed downward pressure.

    Fast forward to today. The Envoy MEC wants to be crystal clear: We remain fixated on rectifying the past mistakes of our industry's drive towards a lower cost-point and a hyper-efficient labor utilization that would make even a robot sweat. This week the worldhas changed, and we are going to have to change with it. It's long past time for the leadership of both Envoy and American to stop following Delta's example, and startleading the way.

    While it's too late to be a leader on converting temporary bonuses into durable and sustainable wages, there remain many ways in which Envoy can be an industry leader:


    • Honor the full 50% required by the mutually agreed upon flow-through agreement, and offer a career progression that literally can't be matched by anyone in the industry in the short term,
    • Immediately begin negotiations to initially match or exceed Endeavor's First Officer pay structure so that we can remain a true leader in this hiring market,
    • Match or exceed Endeavor's Captain pay so that our First Officers will actually want to upgrade instead of being forced to upgrade,
    • Restore vacation and other Quality of Life measures lost over the past 6 years. Treat our crews with the respect they've earned and deserve,
    • Insist AA provide a flight file that will produce friendlier schedules,
    • Continue lobbying American Airlines for new and innovative ideas to increase Envoy's attractiveness for both current and future pilots.


    America as a nation has never been a step behind its competition on the world's stage. Her namesake carrier shouldn't be either. The world has changed, and the pilots of Envoy are ready to change with it.

    We look forward to working with management to discuss these challenges, and crafting a path that is beneficial to our members and the Company too. We urge Envoy and AAG to "go for great" here at Envoy, and quickly match (or better) the market and ensure Envoy's rightful place as an industry leader. Our pilots deserve nothing less.

    In Unity,
    Your MEC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    You bash me for the information I put out but then talk out of both sides of your mouth.
    Except you don't put out information....you put out propaganda. You've done it since your time in the union.

    In this discussion of the Endeavor TA, the perfect analogy for the flow to AA finally occurred to me: the company will gladly pay us tomorrow for a hamburger today. Dacuj's attitude is a perfect representation of this. "Who cares what you're making or your QOL today, tomorrow you'll be at American!"

    It's a great way to get employees to willingly sacrifice their labor, energy, and time with their family for less compensation than they are worth.

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