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Thread: Reserve Rules LOA Reached

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglepilot View Post
    The language in the LOA is very loose. CS will find the many loopholes and bend us over even more. Tighten up the weak language that we've been abused by for the last X amount of years then I'll consider voting yes.
    "Loose" or "weak" contractual language is the foundation for every ill a pilot group has found itself in. It's also a component that airline management clings to like a child to its mothers pant leg. There is reason for that. The reason is because interpretation gives flexibility and flexibility is not anything with meaning unless clearly defined. Thus, the past is littered with bad contractual language resulting in something not truly understood and agreed upon. ALL contractual provisions should have examples (multiple) to demonstrate exactly what the agreed upon meaning of any given provision is, so at least you understand the intention and can better defend it. Otherwise, you'll just continue to get the results of the past and wonder and complain why this is happening to you.

    LEARN from the past, so as not to perpetually repeat it.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 10-03-2017 at 06:25 PM.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by E175ERAUDriver View Post
    Not bad LOA. Im voting yes.
    As long as you understand what it says, you like that and can live it, go for it. You'll have to live with and by your decisions and what you DON'T want to be is someone at Envoy many years after he thought he'd be gone angry for the choices he made in the past. You also don't want to be blamed as "washed up" failures by future new-hires who will blame you for decisions like this.

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    Almost every CRJ CA on RSV is a no vote. All the FOs I've talked with on RSV on various equipment are no's as well. I think it'll pass but not by 85%.
    Not sure how I'm going to vote yet, not at work so I haven't looked that hard yet. Care to share your list with me?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    You guys love to get on here and bellyache and talk about how horrible things are. Then when your union and company graciously offer improvements you bitch about how horrible it is. Find another career field and get the hell off property then you bunch of loudmouths.
    Spoken like a man who will never be on RSV

    Prove me wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smitty328 View Post
    Not sure how I'm going to vote yet, not at work so I haven't looked that hard yet. Care to share your list with me?
    Share my list of no voters?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglepilot View Post
    Share my list of no voters?
    No, your list of what ifs and loop holes. Since I'm about to be back on reserve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smitty328 View Post
    No, your list of what ifs and loop holes. Since I'm about to be back on reserve.
    Nope. Not going to negotiate in public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglepilot View Post
    Nope. Not going to negotiate in public.
    Not asking for it in public. You said you had it in an email, so I was hoping you could send it to me. I'll be in long term, so I won't really be around the crew room to talk about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smitty328 View Post
    Not asking for it in public. You said you had it in an email, so I was hoping you could send it to me. I'll be in long term, so I won't really be around the crew room to talk about it.
    I would totally disregard anything eaglepilot gives to you in public or private. He talks about "not negotiating" in public but does it here all the time. He's a bitter 10% Envoy lifer if that tells you anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    I would totally disregard anything eaglepilot gives to you in public or private. He talks about "not negotiating" in public but does it here all the time. He's a bitter 10% Envoy lifer if that tells you anything.
    This request should be of no surprise to anyone along with your favorite claim of belittlement that those you disagree with are either bitter washed-up has-beens imminently being put out to pasture or "lifer's" there with an ax to grind. It's obvious you advocate pilots stop talking, stop questioning and stop thinking in the hope they become the mindless robots you so want them to be to make your job easier. In fact, it's even better if they only listen to you or your small cadre of psyops forum chum masters, eh ? . I expect some success though as clearly many of these new(er) pilots haven't been exposed to the tactics used by anti-labor forces in this industry so are vulnerable to fall into the same old well-worm traps. Unfortunately, the Association leadership should know better, but clearly the flow-thru monkey on their backs only means they cannot control or stop their trips down to the street corner to get their fix and keep that high going and thus are along for the ride now themselves.

    BTW, I always laugh at the "do not negotiate in public" philosophy as that's simply another tack of someone else controlling a groups expectations. The fact is that no opinion on these forums, or even in personal discussion will alter any contract related vote by any degree and a few opinions here or elsewhere wont alter a strong, competent negotiating teams position or situation, only a weak incompetent one. The fact that they would even allow themselves to be played by the other party's claims of "this is what your pilots want", etc., is a demonstration of that weakness. The overwhelming majority of pilots will make up their own minds based on their own interests and biases, regardless of what they say to or tell others. Most have actually already decided upon initial consideration of such changes. In the case of Envoy ALPA this time around, again, if history is any teacher, you will see them not present what they accepted (and they wouldn't accept it, if they didn't think it was good), as a neutral, but as a sales pitch to their pilots to accept it too.

    Not telling anyone how to vote as I don't have to live with it (and no one should vote on anyone's opinions, including mine), but the past is fully in play here and so the present is almost certain to further the past. The future then, although not certain, becomes fairly predictable. What SHOULD be occurring though is healthy discussion and debate among the pilots, not silence and automatic capitulation. Only someone with nefarious motives such as yourself would advocate that, but since you are a known quantity, that is to be expected and thus you are predictable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    I would totally disregard anything eaglepilot gives to you in public or private. He talks about "not negotiating" in public but does it here all the time. He's a bitter 10% Envoy lifer if that tells you anything.
    LOL you clearly have no idea who I am or my history with the airline then on those claims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    This request should be of no surprise to anyone along with your favorite claim of belittlement that those you disagree with are either bitter washed-up has-beens imminently being put out to pasture or "lifer's" there with an ax to grind. It's obvious you advocate pilots stop talking, stop questioning and stop thinking in the hope they become the mindless robots you so want them to be to make your job easier. In fact, it's even better if they only listen to you or your small cadre of psyops forum chum masters, eh ? . I expect some success though as clearly many of these new(er) pilots haven't been exposed to the tactics used by anti-labor forces in this industry so are vulnerable to fall into the same old well-worm traps. Unfortunately, the Association leadership should know better, but clearly the flow-thru monkey on their backs only means they cannot control or stop their trips down to the street corner to get their fix and keep that high going and thus are along for the ride now themselves.

    BTW, I always laugh at the "do not negotiate in public" philosophy as that's simply another tack of someone else controlling a groups expectations. The fact is that no opinion on these forums, or even in personal discussion will alter any contract related vote by any degree and a few opinions here or elsewhere wont alter a strong, competent negotiating teams position or situation, only a weak incompetent one. The fact that they would even allow themselves to be played by the other party's claims of "this is what your pilots want", etc., is a demonstration of that weakness. The overwhelming majority of pilots will make up their own minds based on their own interests and biases, regardless of what they say to or tell others. Most have actually already decided upon initial consideration of such changes. In the case of Envoy ALPA this time around, again, if history is any teacher, you will see them not present what they accepted (and they wouldn't accept it, if they didn't think it was good), as a neutral, but as a sales pitch to their pilots to accept it too.

    Not telling anyone how to vote as I don't have to live with it (and no one should vote on anyone's opinions, including mine), but the past is fully in play here and so the present is almost certain to further the past. The future then, although not certain, becomes fairly predictable. What SHOULD be occurring though is healthy discussion and debate among the pilots, not silence and automatic capitulation. Only someone with nefarious motives such as yourself would advocate that, but since you are a known quantity, that is to be expected and thus you are predictable.
    This is the second or third time you have mentioned this in the past few days. My take is that you finally have looked long and hard in the mirror and realize that your career is indeed in is final days. In other words, you realize you are exactly what I have bolded above and it's the hardest thing to take that these younger guys are all starting out here at Envoy in the 175, never having to fly a turboprop and flowing to AA in 6 years before their 30th birthday. You got what, maybe 5 total years at AA after flowing at 60?

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    I would totally disregard anything eaglepilot gives to you in public or private. He talks about "not negotiating" in public but does it here all the time. He's a bitter 10% Envoy lifer if that tells you anything.
    I'd say this gives eaglepilot a little street cred. You constantly call people haters, idiots, bitter etc... if they don't share your opinions. I dismiss most things that you and Dacuj say on here because of your "holier than thou" attitudes. I hate how people always go to "the company is trying to screw me" mindset, but I also understand it's a learned response.

    I'm trying to find out all of the info I can about this LOA because it will affect me and my children for quite a while. I see no downside in asking people for their input.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    ... these younger guys are all starting out here ... in the 175, never having to fly a turboprop and flowing ... in 6 years before their 30th birthday.
    1. It's a genuine shame that scope has been relaxed this far that a mainline airplane such as the 175 is flown by non-mainline pilots working under a horrendous labor contract. Scope relief has ruined thousands of pilot careers.

    2. No one has flowed by age 30, nor 6 years. I believe the most recent flows were 12-13 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    This is the second or third time you have mentioned this in the past few days. My take is that you finally have looked long and hard in the mirror and realize that your career is indeed in is final days. In other words, you realize you are exactly what I have bolded above and it's the hardest thing to take that these younger guys are all starting out here at Envoy in the 175, never having to fly a turboprop and flowing to AA in 6 years before their 30th birthday. You got what, maybe 5 total years at AA after flowing at 60?
    I know this narrative works for you, but I laugh when I read this as for it to have any validity, I'd have to be the person you think I am, i.e., the jealous, bitter washed-up Ex-Eagle pilot in the final months of his career. I am not that person. Curiously, but not surprisingly you overlook that I have said this too before, but you see what you want to see, especially that which validates your demented reality. I've also stated my positive sentiments several times of those who do flow at young ages and more quickly and am happy for them. You not so curiously overlook this as well.

    I'm sorry, but your feeble efforts to quantify me into that which you want me to be will continue unrealized and unfulfilled with perhaps the exception of the obvious cesspool of your own mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smitty328 View Post
    I'd say this gives eaglepilot a little street cred. You constantly call people haters, idiots, bitter etc... if they don't share your opinions. I dismiss most things that you and Dacuj say on here because of your "holier than thou" attitudes. I hate how people always go to "the company is trying to screw me" mindset, but I also understand it's a learned response.

    I'm trying to find out all of the info I can about this LOA because it will affect me and my children for quite a while. I see no downside in asking people for their input.
    Sounds good. Get all the info you can (even that which you dislike or don't agree with) and then be an informed consumer about that which you are considering for purchase.

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    Talk about perfect timing......i.hope people can see how little management here values us when we are comparing these two TAs.

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    Bit, but we have flow. Sarcasm for those who don't pick up on it.

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    I didn't see a long call on this new LOA, I must have missed it.
    Last edited by Centurion; 10-04-2017 at 03:17 PM.

  20. #60
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    We have Flow. That alone trumps Endeavor's LOA.

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