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    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    Dacuj, would like you to be purged

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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    I'm in total agreement that the pipeline instructors we've been getting are top notch. All young guys and very eager to learn. All very excited to be on the express pathway to AA. I'll take any one of them in a cockpit any day over Beagleboy.
    Really? The cargo guys I've been doing IOE with have been no issue. Getting signed off quick. The pipeline instructors are the ones needing more time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglepilot View Post
    Really? The cargo guys I've been doing IOE with have been no issue. Getting signed off quick. The pipeline instructors are the ones needing more time.
    My experience as well.

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    You can look for pipeline instructors shooting to the top of the seniority list in every class. Why? Because they're technically Envoy employees vs. a straight street new hire. This will help with all of the older, more washed up guys hogging all the 175 slots. It's no secret the pipeline guys have been getting the shaft, forced onto the CRJ and 145 over the past year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    You can look for pipeline instructors shooting to the top of the seniority list in every class. Why? Because they're technically Envoy employees vs. a straight street new hire. This will help with all of the older, more washed up guys hogging all the 175 slots. It's no secret the pipeline guys have been getting the shaft, forced onto the CRJ and 145 over the past year.
    HOW DARE YOU. Getting assigned the 145 is getting shafted?!

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    This guy is freaking hilarious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    You can look for pipeline instructors shooting to the top of the seniority list in every class. Why? Because they're technically Envoy employees vs. a straight street new hire. This will help with all of the older, more washed up guys hogging all the 175 slots. It's no secret the pipeline guys have been getting the shaft, forced onto the CRJ and 145 over the past year.
    When crap hits the fan, I don't care how well you did on written tests in ground school. I care about how well you can fly a friggin plane. Cargo guys have outshined the pipeline instructors almost every single time I've flown with them. The CRJ and 145 both have LESS automation than the 175 thus resulting in pilots having to be pilots, not an "automation manager." I have a friend in the ETC on the 175. Just talked to him regarding this on the phone. "Overall, the Cargo guys have better understanding and piloting skills than the (pipeline) instructors because they see the big picture and are more used to the speed and complex nature of the airplane."

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    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    Actually dacuj idiot, they were not hired on to the seniority list, of that is the case there names would have been on the list. What appears is an alpa/envoy shaft to new hires, age discrimination, and shall we say defamation of character by envoy and you.

    Your cadets may be better on many ways except experience and decision making capabilities which are importantas a pilot. You can Give all the e175 to cadets, then we can watch it get plowed when the cadet makes captain in 2 years.

    Oh, dacuj, as a foot note, you are a moron.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Actually dacuj idiot, they were not hired on to the seniority list, of that is the case there names would have been on the list. What appears is an alpa/envoy shaft to new hires, age discrimination, and shall we say defamation of character by envoy and you.

    Your cadets may be better on many ways except experience and decision making capabilities which are importantas a pilot. You can Give all the e175 to cadets, then we can watch it get plowed when the cadet makes captain in 2 years.

    Oh, dacuj, as a foot note, you are a moron.
    All, read this post carefully. This is hard evidence why the "gummers" have no business being in charge of anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglepilot View Post
    When crap hits the fan, I don't care how well you did on written tests in ground school. I care about how well you can fly a friggin plane. Cargo guys have outshined the pipeline instructors almost every single time I've flown with them. The CRJ and 145 both have LESS automation than the 175 thus resulting in pilots having to be pilots, not an "automation manager." I have a friend in the ETC on the 175. Just talked to him regarding this on the phone. "Overall, the Cargo guys have better understanding and piloting skills than the (pipeline) instructors because they see the big picture and are more used to the speed and complex nature of the airplane."
    You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, I wholly agree with the move to give the pipeline guys "super seniority."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    You can look for pipeline instructors shooting to the top of the seniority list in every class. Why? Because they're technically Envoy employees vs. a straight street new hire. This will help with all of the older, more washed up guys hogging all the 175 slots. It's no secret the pipeline guys have been getting the shaft, forced onto the CRJ and 145 over the past year.
    So the CRJ and 145 aren't the "high tech" birds you claimed yesterday ? More mirth......more embarrassment.

  12. #72
    Super Moderator Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    You can look for pipeline instructors shooting to the top of the seniority list in every class. Why? Because they're technically Envoy employees vs. a straight street new hire. This will help with all of the older, more washed up guys hogging all the 175 slots. It's no secret the pipeline guys have been getting the shaft, forced onto the CRJ and 145 over the past year.
    Calling it "getting the shaft;" that was a bit over the top, don't you think?

    I get what they're trying to do; but messing with pilot seniority probably should be done carefully. I happen to think it's a good idea; but even if it's a good idea, it should still be approved by the pilots. At the very least, posting the LOA for ten days (as required) and getting feedback from the membership. Changing the method by which seniority is determined is a big big thing. CBA Section 13.B.2. is the relevant section that will require an LOA to change.

    Trans States is awarding people their seniority date upon interview and offer of employment with the ability to defer a class date while retaining the seniority for up to 6 months.

    SkyWest is hiring pilots and paying them based on the number of 121 years in service. If you have 8 years at Envoy, you'd get 8 year pay at SkyWest. Not for bidding, just pay.

    Point being that what has been said in the past is coming to fruition. The airline with the pilots will get the flying. The market for new pilots is becoming fierce.

    What is needed soon (next) is to convert these bonus programs to durable contract changes so they can advertise actual pay scales not reliant on bonus pay that can disappear at any time.

    Allow people to get their employment offer as their seniority date, and defer for up to 6 months.

    Immediately after that, institute a pay portability thing like SkyWest and let other 121 pilots come in at their appropriate pay scale seniority level, but not for bidding.

    then extend a pilot list seniority number to pilots in the pipeline program as a means to keep them committed to Envoy, and to draw more into the program

    oh, and letting bygones be bygones and re-employing a few people wouldn't hurt either. Goodwill goes a long way, and word gets around. Look at AA and the FA CBA arbitration. The company won the arbitration, but then Parker (to his credit by the way) gave the FA's what they had asked for anyway.

    Is Envoy really having CA upgrade classes go unfilled currently?
    Last edited by Cujo665; 09-16-2017 at 03:48 PM.
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    Yup if ya start shaking up the bees nest with seniority change without procedure get ready for a s**tburger from pilots. On the gummer vs green grad debate. Sorry man hands down the old guys win. Not even close when comparing book smarts and common sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    Calling it "getting the shaft;" that was a bit over the top, don't you think?

    I get what they're trying to do; but messing with pilot seniority probably should be done carefully. I happen to think it's a good idea; but even if it's a good idea, it should still be approved by the pilots. At the very least, posting the LOA for ten days (as required) and getting feedback from the membership. Changing the method by which seniority is determined is a big big thing. CBA Section 13.B.2. is the relevant section that will require an LOA to change.

    Trans States is awarding people their seniority date upon interview and offer of employment with the ability to defer a class date while retaining the seniority for up to 6 months.

    SkyWest is hiring pilots and paying them based on the number of 121 years in service. If you have 8 years at Envoy, you'd get 8 year pay at SkyWest. Not for bidding, just pay.

    Point being that what has been said in the past is coming to fruition. The airline with the pilots will get the flying. The market for new pilots is becoming fierce.

    What is needed soon (next) is to convert these bonus programs to durable contract changes so they can advertise actual pay scales not reliant on bonus pay that can disappear at any time.

    Allow people to get their employment offer as their seniority date, and defer for up to 6 months.

    Immediately after that, institute a pay portability thing like SkyWest and let other 121 pilots come in at their appropriate pay scale seniority level, but not for bidding.

    then extend a pilot list seniority number to pilots in the pipeline program as a means to keep them committed to Envoy, and to draw more into the program

    oh, and letting bygones be bygones and re-employing a few people wouldn't hurt either. Goodwill goes a long way, and word gets around. Look at AA and the FA CBA arbitration. The company won the arbitration, but then Parker (to his credit by the way) gave the FA's what they had asked for anyway.

    Is Envoy really having CA upgrade classes go unfilled currently?
    First off, you don't work here so why do you care? Would you just describe yourself as a policy wonk and thus the interest. Envoy is having NO trouble, none, hiring. We are getting LARGE classes. I think management is being proactive with this move. It just ensures that the new hire spigot stays strong.

    As far as the policy itself, it's solid. As pipeline guys are our bread and butter and future as well, it makes sense to make a change geared in their favor. It's no secret that many of them have been/are upset they have no shot at the 175. This evens the field and makes things as fair as possible regarding our pipeline instructors. I would say that in the future, a seniority number for them as soon as they sign is a distinct possibility.

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    Super Moderator Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    First off, you don't work here so why do you care? Would you just describe yourself as a policy wonk and thus the interest. Envoy is having NO trouble, none, hiring. We are getting LARGE classes. I think management is being proactive with this move. It just ensures that the new hire spigot stays strong.
    I care because I spent one third of my adult life working at a company I believe in. I have many close friends who still work there. So, forgive me if I still care. Perhaps when you are older you will understand things like loyalty and commitment better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    As far as the policy itself, it's solid. As pipeline guys are our bread and butter and future as well, it makes sense to make a change geared in their favor. It's no secret that many of them have been/are upset they have no shot at the 175. This evens the field and makes things as fair as possible regarding our pipeline instructors. I would say that in the future, a seniority number for them as soon as they sign is a distinct possibility.
    I didn't say it was a bad idea. I said it was a good idea. I added that it needs to be done correctly, that's all.

    [edit-1840edt] Just read it, and it looks better than I expected. Nice job.

    Getting pilots now does not equal getting pilots 3 months from now as other carriers have already begun making their jobs more attractive. I pointed out some of the things happening now at other carriers as a way of predicting they type of things you can expect here when the well starts to dry up. My point was for them to get ahead of it and start doing these things now to keep the supply coming here as their first choice. The market is getting competitive, they need to be ahead of it.

    A repatriation program to get people who left from the bankruptcy and on, to come back with some prorated seniority
    A way to assign seniority at job acceptance and defer class up to six months
    A way to bring your seniority with you from another 121 carrier for pay purposes
    A way to more fairly assign seniority other than simply oldest to youngest. (this new LOA is a good start)
    A way to give pilot seniority numbers to pipeline program pilots
    A way to let a military pilot interview and get hired/seniority 6 months before being discharged

    I'd add that they should take a few pages from the other two WO's also.
    Do something like add the PSA SAP program to Envoy monthly award process
    Do something like add the PDT insurance (short & long term disability) to the benefits at no cost to the pilot.

    Take a page from Republic and get rid of airport standby ready reserve. It's really there mostly for last minute sick calls. So, cut a temporary deal to test it; if a pilot bangs out sick with less than two hours notice (three in NY) then they can not use their sick time payout to cover their pay for the day, and the value of the day gets deducted from the sick bank. That should all but eliminate last minute sick calls.

    I also think they need to start working on building a more unified atmosphere with the pilots instead of a confrontational one.

    It's their airline to run. Just saying where I see the industry heading, that's all. So far with some notable exceptions they've been doing a good job running the place. That's why I started calling the Tide Turning back in 2015.
    Last edited by Cujo665; 09-16-2017 at 07:29 PM.
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    So throw seniority out the window? What is next.....pipeline pilots get to upgrade out of seniority since they keep bitching about having to wait to upgrade?

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    Super Moderator Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiz5422 View Post
    So throw seniority out the window? What is next.....pipeline pilots get to upgrade out of seniority since they keep bitching about having to wait to upgrade?
    No, if you read the current approved LOA it only effects seniority assignment for new hires when they all show up in class to get their seniority number. It's actually a pretty good change.

    The other stuff I mentioned varies. Some change nothing, some change a little. The concept of time = seniority remains unchanged.

    I get the concern, trust me, I do. But if we can do creative things that don't harm anybody here, and do bring more bodies in the door doesn't that help them to not have to meter?
    Last edited by Cujo665; 09-16-2017 at 07:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    .

    Is Envoy really having CA upgrade classes go unfilled currently?
    Yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    No, if you read the current approved LOA it only effects seniority assignment for new hires when they all show up in class to get their seniority number. It's actually a pretty good change.

    The other stuff I mentioned varies. Some change nothing, some change a little. The concept of time = seniority remains unchanged.

    I get the concern, trust me, I do. But if we can do creative things that don't harm anybody here, and do bring more bodies in the door doesn't that help them to not have to meter?
    I doubt envoy management will ever choose NOT to meter......

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    Quote Originally Posted by xpanterica View Post
    HOW DARE YOU. Getting assigned the 145 is getting shafted?!

    It is in a way. That barbie jet can't compare enough to the baby bus.

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