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Thread: Next Big Thing

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    That said, that's not the big news. It's all in the works but if you were happy with 140s coming back, more 175s and MIA opening, you will be very happy with what's in the works for later in the year.
    At least identify your audience.

    There are essentially 2 separate groups within Envoy with different end goals. They are those who plan to flow to AA and those who hope to retire at Envoy (most of those with outside aspirations llikely don't care).. Those who plan to flow are best served with a smaller, less prominent Eagle system, including Envoy and those who plan to stay at Envoy want as many and as large a plane as possible so as to maximize job security and pay (I strongly doubt true QWL will EVER occur here). What benefits one group is not in the interests of the other long term.

    So Mr. stage performer, at least tell your audience if the mysterious sugar plums you're teasing Envoy pilots here are good for the lifers or the flows ?

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    You don't have to be a puppet to know that they will announce more 175s and new bases. (Maybe PHL, PHX, even LAX)

    Sorry to steal your thunder Dacju.......

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    Why would anyone think more airplanes is good news? We can't staff the ones that are currently on property.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    At least identify your audience.

    There are essentially 2 separate groups within Envoy with different end goals. They are those who plan to flow to AA and those who hope to retire at Envoy (most of those with outside aspirations llikely don't care).. Those who plan to flow are best served with a smaller, less prominent Eagle system, including Envoy and those who plan to stay at Envoy want as many and as large a plane as possible so as to maximize job security and pay (I strongly doubt true QWL will EVER occur here). What benefits one group is not in the interests of the other long term.

    So Mr. stage performer, at least tell your audience if the mysterious sugar plums you're teasing Envoy pilots here are good for the lifers or the flows ?
    You're not completely correct. On a macro level, the flows benefit from a small Eagle network. But on a more micro level, even those flowing (90% of Envoy) benefit from new aircraft and bases. This drives new hires coming here, and we need new hires to upgrade our current pilots and to stay in business.

    Two years ago we had the plague. The flow and upgrades are curing that making ailment. A smaller Envoy seems like it would benefit the flowing pilots but, in reality, it really doesn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    At least identify your audience.

    There are essentially 2 separate groups within Envoy with different end goals. They are those who plan to flow to AA and those who hope to retire at Envoy (most of those with outside aspirations llikely don't care).. Those who plan to flow are best served with a smaller, less prominent Eagle system, including Envoy and those who plan to stay at Envoy want as many and as large a plane as possible so as to maximize job security and pay (I strongly doubt true QWL will EVER occur here). What benefits one group is not in the interests of the other long term.

    So Mr. stage performer, at least tell your audience if the mysterious sugar plums you're teasing Envoy pilots here are good for the lifers or the flows ?
    What you can't seem to get through that very thick noggin of yours is....more airplanes and growth at Envoy is good for "both sides." I like your subtle attempt to further drive a wedge through Envoy pilot unity by the way.

    Growth equals more flying, bases and increased numbers of pilots. I wouldn't be surprised to see us a 3000 plus pilot group in the future. And guess what more pilots on property means? Yep, you guessed it. It allows AA the capability to increase those flow numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smitty328 View Post
    Why would anyone think more airplanes is good news? We can't staff the ones that are currently on property.
    We'lll just hire more. Training center has so much unused capacity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr mojo View Post
    You're not completely correct. On a macro level, the flows benefit from a small Eagle network. But on a more micro level, even those flowing (90% of Envoy) benefit from new aircraft and bases. This drives new hires coming here, and we need new hires to upgrade our current pilots and to stay in business.
    I'm aware of what you're getting at. In fact, on a super "macro" level, with no healthy Eagle system AA withers and weakens, so yes a certain amount of bases and aircraft are good for those who flow. That being said, if Eagle (including Envoy) grows in more hubs and gets more aircraft, that reduces the flying needed at AA (the whole point of the birth of the jet regionals in the first place) and that means less flying, less jobs and fewer bases and/or smaller bases equaling slower advancement once you get to AA. The two entities (AA and Eagle) are at present competing for their share of what is a stable pie in size. In fact, the last 2 years demonstrate a shrinking mainline fleet at the expense of a growing regional one (while they have pilots anyway). The key is balance, but you really have to acknowledge.....at least IMO anyway, the diverging interests of those at Envoy who want to flow and those who want to stay. Another byproduct that simply must be acknowledged that also demonstrates that divergence is the philosophy of this and more recent union leaderships there who have essentially embraced functional impotence because of their personal goals of flow vs. stay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr mojo View Post
    Two years ago we had the plague. The flow and upgrades are curing that making ailment. A smaller Envoy seems like it would benefit the flowing pilots but, in reality, it really doesn't.
    Yes you did have a plague as you call it, but it's interesting to note that since being cured (for now.....which means it's actually more of a remission) of that "plague", has the flow increased to match the hiring you describe as a cure ? Has this cure truly benefitted those who want to flow by larger flow numbers or for that matter those who want to stay with better pay or QWL ? Speaking of QWL, can those who want to flow have more flexibility in bidding other aircraft or domiciles as they did in the past while they wait to flow ? Quite frankly, I don't see all that much benefit for many of the tenured pilots there as the flow is running as slow as possible, the QWL is as bad as ever by many Envoy pilots own admissions with many pilots in jail in present equipment/domiciles or maxed out at pay rates that with inflation mean they make less every year ? I see a cure as you call it that has resulted in better things for management and the three stooges then I see for a large percentage of the pilots, so perhaps the view that the illness there has been cured is really just a demonstration that expectations have been successfully managed by town criers like Dacuj ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    What you can't seem to get through that very thick noggin of yours is....more airplanes and growth at Envoy is good for "both sides." I like your subtle attempt to further drive a wedge through Envoy pilot unity by the way.
    Oh, I get what you're saying quite clearly and what you say is predominantly propagandist B.S. based on selling an agenda. As for dividing Envoy pilots, I can't hold a candle to you or your fellow stooges who peddle this agenda with murky promises, cloudy claims and representing realities that are roundly rejected by most who read them here and elsewhere. That's my perception anyway and I think it's quite well founded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Growth equals more flying, bases and increased numbers of pilots. I wouldn't be surprised to see us a 3000 plus pilot group in the future. And guess what more pilots on property means? Yep, you guessed it. It allows AA the capability to increase those flow numbers.
    A sugar water salesman can't help but sell the product by mixing truth with lies along the hope of future hope. Your first sentence here is obviously correct, but reality proves it has no relation to the last sentence as hiring HAS ramped up at Envoy, but the flow plods along as slow as ever. The middle is all speculation with a dash of hope (sugar water) to keep the gerbils here running on the Envoy wheel with the promise of filling up the sugar water dispenser if they keep running. At least you are predictable.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 08-04-2017 at 11:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    I like your subtle attempt to further drive a wedge through ****" pilot unity by the way.

    Growth equals more flying, bases and increased numbers of pilots. I wouldn't be surprised to see us a 3000 plus pilot group in the future. And guess what more pilots on property means? Yep, you guessed it. It allows ** the capability to increase those flow numbers.
    1. It's very ironic of YOU to accuse someone else of trying to destroy pilot unity.

    2. The possibility of increased flow is just another feel-good rumor. All indications point to metering to the bare minimum, violating the intent of the flow-through agreement. THERE IS NO TRUE-UP TO KEEP THEM HONEST. I reluctantly expect widespread disappointment as metering causes stagnation and hundreds/thousands of seniority numbers are lost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    I'm aware of what you're getting at. In fact, on a super "macro" level, with no healthy Eagle system AA withers and weakens, so yes a certain amount of bases and aircraft are good for those who flow.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    That being said, if Eagle (including Envoy) grows in more hubs and gets more aircraft, that reduces the flying needed at AA (the whole point of the birth of the jet regionals in the first place) and that means less flying, less jobs and fewer bases and/or smaller bases equaling slower advancement once you get to AA. The two entities (AA and Eagle) are at present competing for their share of what is a stable pie in size. In fact, the last 2 years demonstrate a shrinking mainline fleet at the expense of a growing regional one (while they have pilots anyway).
    This is not accurate that last 12-18 months AAG has been capped on scope, plus or minus a hand full of hulls. The movement has been a shell game only. Envoy has benefited from this movement in the more recent past. This is a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    The key is balance, but you really have to acknowledge.....at least IMO anyway, the diverging interests of those at Envoy who want to flow and those who want to stay. Another byproduct that simply must be acknowledged that also demonstrates that divergence is the philosophy of this and more recent union leaderships there who have essentially embraced functional impotence because of their personal goals of flow vs. stay.
    I do agree, all the pilots have different interests. It's always been that way. I strongly disagree about the union leadership. Have you spoken with them recently? I have. They aren't who you make the most to be. But you are entitled to your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Yes you did have a plague as you call it, but it's interesting to note that since being cured (for now.....which means it's actually more of a remission) of that "plague", has the flow increased to match the hiring you describe as a cure ?
    The flow hasn't increased, but the time to flow has come down and will continue that trajectory. That will drive new hires here. I know many don't want to look forward to the numbers and they claim "flow is currently 18 years" etc but that is using the numbers to skew the reality. I have no problem saying that a new hire will flow in X years as long as that is predicated with, "using these assumptions and subject to change blah blah" Will it be 5.5 years or 7 years? In the big picture it's much better now then before. People can't see the forest for the trees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Has this cure truly benefitted those who want to flow by larger flow numbers or for that matter those who want to stay with better pay or QWL ? Speaking of QWL, can those who want to flow have more flexibility in bidding other aircraft or domiciles as they did in the past while they wait to flow ? Quite frankly, I don't see all that much benefit for many of the tenured pilots there as the flow is running as slow as possible, the QWL is as bad as ever by many Envoy pilots own admissions with many pilots in jail in present equipment/domiciles or maxed out at pay rates that with inflation mean they make less every year?
    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    I see a cure as you call it that has resulted in better things for management and the three stooges then I see for a large percentage of the pilots, so perhaps the view that the illness there has been cured is really just a demonstration that expectations have been successfully managed by town criers like Dacuj ?
    Things aren't perfect. But to be honest they never were. The schedules could be the biggest improvement.

    Ok I'm going back to lurking on this. Thanks for the convo. Much better than the trash throwing in other threads. Maybe ignore the clown?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bravobridge View Post
    1. It's very ironic of YOU to accuse someone else of trying to destroy pilot unity.

    2. The possibility of increased flow is just another feel-good rumor. All indications point to metering to the bare minimum, violating the intent of the flow-through agreement. THERE IS NO TRUE-UP TO KEEP THEM HONEST. I reluctantly expect widespread disappointment as metering causes stagnation and hundreds/thousands of seniority numbers are lost.
    They really have little choice. I think it's clear they are front-ending Envoy with excess pilots to build and maintain a pilot staffing safety-net, if you will, should sudden attrition and/or new-hire evaporation result in a negative pilot staffing situation that threatens their expansion goals. Since they likely intend to run Envoy with a built-in staffing bubble (that ironically will likely translate little for scheduling QWL or pilot aircraft/domicile bidding flexibility), the flow will indeed run at bare-minimum metered rate in perpetuity no matter what new aircraft or domiciles are announced or how big Envoy might even get. From a flow-thru perspective, I think Envoy will be like a Mack truck that tops out at 25 MPH, but burns a huge amount of gas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr mojo View Post
    Agreed.

    This is not accurate that last 12-18 months AAG has been capped on scope, plus or minus a hand full of hulls. The movement has been a shell game only. Envoy has benefited from this movement in the more recent past. This is a good thing.

    I do agree, all the pilots have different interests. It's always been that way. I strongly disagree about the union leadership. Have you spoken with them recently? I have. They aren't who you make the most to be. But you are entitled to your opinion.

    The flow hasn't increased, but the time to flow has come down and will continue that trajectory. That will drive new hires here. I know many don't want to look forward to the numbers and they claim "flow is currently 18 years" etc but that is using the numbers to skew the reality. I have no problem saying that a new hire will flow in X years as long as that is predicated with, "using these assumptions and subject to change blah blah" Will it be 5.5 years or 7 years? In the big picture it's much better now then before. People can't see the forest for the trees.



    Things aren't perfect. But to be honest they never were. The schedules could be the biggest improvement.

    Ok I'm going back to lurking on this. Thanks for the convo. Much better than the trash throwing in other threads. Maybe ignore the clown?
    Discussion is a good thing, I think. But one point I need to reiterate is that over the last 2 years, the AA fleet has consistently contracted in size and the regionals block hours have been ramped up to take much of that flying. That is not a good trend for those with AA flow aspirations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Discussion is a good thing, I think. But one point I need to reiterate is that over the last 2 years, the AA fleet has consistently contracted in size and the regionals block hours have been ramped up to take much of that flying. That is not a good trend for those with AA flow aspirations.
    I'd have to look at the block hours, I'll assume you're correct. I was strictly speaking about hulls. That being said, maybe we don't want to fix the schedules. Fixing the schedules would mean a more efficient company. That would allow Envoy to fly more hours. We don't want that do we? LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiz5422 View Post
    You don't have to be a puppet to know that they will announce more 175s and new bases. (Maybe PHL, PHX, even LAX)
    The most recent official word from the boss is that none of these will happen any time soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snippercr View Post
    We'lll just hire more. Training center has so much unused capacity.
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha *breathe* hahahahahahahahahaha

    Thanks for the laugh!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bravobridge View Post
    The most recent official word from the boss is that none of these will happen any time soon.
    That was also the boss's line regarding MIA until it happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiz5422 View Post
    You don't have to be a puppet to know that they will announce more 175s and new bases. (Maybe PHL, PHX, even LAX)

    Sorry to steal your thunder Dacju.......
    LAX - not happening any time soon
    PHX - not happening, ever
    PHL - may happen, but not until the dust settles with domicile reopenings, etc, and I would predict the 145, not the 175. I think we're more likely to merge with PDT and get the domicile that way than we are to just get a straight opening of PHL. All scenarios seem highly unlikely in the NEAR future, until they can at least staff what they have reliably.

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    Stay tuned for the rest of the year eh dacuj? Just heard we're going from 107 lines to 50 in dfw until at least January. 3000 hours went to Mia and 1000 went to ord. So much for a smooth base opening transition. And yes I'm bitching cause reserve doesn't pay very well, especially for commuters (forced to commute I might add)

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    ^^^ this probably deserves its own thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkvisual View Post
    Stay tuned for the rest of the year eh dacuj? Just heard we're going from 107 lines to 50 in dfw until at least January. 3000 hours went to Mia and 1000 went to ord. So much for a smooth base opening transition. And yes I'm bitching cause reserve doesn't pay very well, especially for commuters (forced to commute I might add)
    Ssssshhhhhh! Don't talk about those DFW lines going to crap. You're an AA pilot. Flow flow flow, it's a great time to be at Envoy! Big things coming! Rumors growing legs everyday!

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