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Thread: How can this affect the flow?

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    Registered User NoOtPilot's Avatar
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    How can this affect the flow?


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    Fellow Pilots,

    Arbitrator Bloch recently ruled in favor of the legacy AA pilotsí grievance that the Sup C narrow body fence should come have come down with the implementation of the SLI. This will have both fortunate and unfortunate effects on every pilot on the property.

    The 260 domestic Grp II NB CA positions in STL which may be moving to DFW will obviously be affected. However, this ruling may also change the 86 Grp III domestic SWB CA positions in MIA (and the Grp III SWB FO jobs that have been consolidated here also). Your ability to hold these positions and the cascading effect this ruling will have throughout the entire seniority list will affect you.

    I would urge all pilots to update both their preferences and displacements before the upcoming bid run this Friday. Although we have not been informed if the company will handle this bid run IAW Section 17 of the JCBA, time is of the essence for AA if they are going to minimize the cost of potential remedies for their non-compliance.



    In Unity,
    I always tell the truth. Even when I lie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    Fellow Pilots,

    Arbitrator Bloch recently ruled in favor of the legacy AA pilotsí grievance that the Sup C narrow body fence should come have come down with the implementation of the SLI. This will have both fortunate and unfortunate effects on every pilot on the property.

    The 260 domestic Grp II NB CA positions in STL which may be moving to DFW will obviously be affected. However, this ruling may also change the 86 Grp III domestic SWB CA positions in MIA (and the Grp III SWB FO jobs that have been consolidated here also). Your ability to hold these positions and the cascading effect this ruling will have throughout the entire seniority list will affect you.

    I would urge all pilots to update both their preferences and displacements before the upcoming bid run this Friday. Although we have not been informed if the company will handle this bid run IAW Section 17 of the JCBA, time is of the essence for AA if they are going to minimize the cost of potential remedies for their non-compliance.



    In Unity,
    Only AA management knows. Whatever is most cost effective. If they load up their training center with current pilots, it MAY slow/stop hiring/flow for awhile, but maybe whatever they do won't.

    It IS a new variable though.

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    But dacuj says it's a contract and we'll all be at aa in a month. Why would he lie? Is he a liar?

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    In order for a statement to be a lie, the person must be in control of all his faculties and then knows their statement is a lie when made. In Dacuj case, he is not in control of his faculties and has no idea of what he says. he is a 2006 new hire, it is 2017, he has been here 11 years, should he not be at aa by now.
    Sir, can I have another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkvisual View Post
    But dacuj says it's a contract and we'll all be at aa in a month. Why would he lie? Is he a liar?
    I don't think anyone should get themselves into a twist just yet. AA may orchestrate a solution that minimizes or spreads the impact of this situation out over a period of time and the flow may well continue at minimum metered rate without disruption. It would certainly make sense for them to devise a situation of minimal cost and disruption. Of course, what is minimal cost and disruption to them might not be for either AA pilots or for that matter those in the pipeline wanting to work for them be it street or flow. It's a wildcard. But my point(s) all along are that in this industry and the history of AA flow, unforeseen "wildcards" have, can and will happen. I personally think even in the worst case scenario of this situation, it will even itself out in no more then a year or even less and that's worse case. There are far worse risks out there that would be more detrimental that are possible.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 07-13-2017 at 08:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    I don't think anyone should get themselves into a twist just yet. AA may orchestrate a solution that minimizes or spreads the impact of this situation out over a period of time and the flow may well continue at minimum metered rate without disruption. It would certainly make sense for them to devise a situation of minimal cost and disruption. Of course, what is minimal cost and disruption to them might not be for either AA pilots or for that matter those in the pipeline wanting to work for them be it street or flow. It's a wildcard. But my point(s) all along are that in this industry and the history of AA flow, unforeseen "wildcards" have, can and will happen. I personally think even in the worst case scenario of this situation, it will even itself out in no more then a year or even less and that's worse case. There are far worse risks out there that would be more detrimental that are possible.
    As announced earlier this week, a presidential grievance was filed over a disagreement with the Companyís interpretation of Section 3.H. of the JCBA, specifically pay protection provisions in the event of a displacement. The Company acquiesced last night, and the disagreement is now resolved.
    Please continue to completely read the information below. All pilots should understand these important points, particularly if you may be subject to displacement. Remember, displacements may have cascading effects throughout bid statuses. The following information is provided to assist you in making decisions on how to complete your Standing Bid List and capture the pay protection provisions of Section 3.H. The Displacement Preferencesection of your Standing Bid List is the key to the protection derived from Section 3. H. Please pay close attention to the bidding template depicted below.
    What is Section 3.H., and What Does It Mean to Me?
    Section 3.H. is a pay protection provision in the JCBA to protect all APA represented pilots in the event of a downsizing or any other disruptive negative modification of the fleet plan forcing a Group II or above pilot to a Group I aircraft position. The mechanics of the pay protection start with Section 17 A.2., which states in part:
    Each bid status is ranked according to its elements. Bases have no ranking. Within a base, all Captain positions are higher than all First Officer positions
    Section 3.H. Displacement Pay Protection reads:
    If any pilot, who was active on December 09, 2013, is involuntarily displaced to a Group 1 aircraft, the pilotís hourly pay rate shall not be reduced. This pay protection shall terminate if and when the involuntarily-displaced pilot can hold a position at the same or higher pay rate.
    The essence of these contractual provisions ensures that a Group II Captain (or above) is eligible for Section 3.H. Group II Captain pay protection by being displaced to a Group I Captain position before being forced to take a demotion to a First Officer position.

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    It can't affect the flow. In case you have amnesia, the flow is contractual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    It can't affect the flow. In case you have amnesia, the flow is contractual.
    So was the reserve turn back language, and look how that turned out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    It can't affect the flow. In case you have amnesia, the flow is contractual.
    I think the argument, ol' boy, is that if hiring stops or slows enough, so does flow. Depending on whether or not this causes some catastrophic training back log, hiring could slow or stop. Will that happen? I have no idea. But if they don't hire, they don't flow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
    I think the argument, ol' boy, is that if hiring stops or slows enough, so does flow. Depending on whether or not this causes some catastrophic training back log, hiring could slow or stop. Will that happen? I have no idea. But if they don't hire, they don't flow.
    Evidently you can't read. As in contracts. OL BOY!

    Why don't you just put us all out of our misery and apply elsewhere? Would love to have you off property. Apparently, AA isn't your cup of tea.

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    Registered User 360DD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Evidently you can't read. As in contracts. OL BOY!

    Why don't you just put us all out of our misery and apply elsewhere? Would love to have you off property. Apparently, AA isn't your cup of tea.
    Contractually when AA stops hiring the flow stops. Do you dispute this? If this ruling temporarily stops hiring the flow will stop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 360DD View Post
    Contractually when AA stops hiring the flow stops. Do you dispute this? If this ruling temporarily stops hiring the flow will stop.
    Terrific. Just another guy that took 20+ to flow and now all he is concerned with is pulling up the ladder and shutting the door in everybody else's face.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    Terrific. Just another guy that took 20+ to flow and now all he is concerned with is pulling up the ladder and shutting the door in everybody else's face.
    Dude, he wasn't making a value judgement, just highlighting a potential reality just as I was. I don't think any AA pilot wants to see the flow stop as any pilot junior to you is a good pilot. But, depending on the situation, AA might just get too swamped with vacancy/displacement training and slow or stop outside hiring. No hiring, no flow.

    Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Dude, he wasn't making a value judgement, just highlighting a potential reality just as I was. I don't think any AA pilot wants to see the flow stop as any pilot junior to you is a good pilot. But, depending on the situation, AA might just get too swamped with vacancy/displacement training and slow or stop outside hiring. No hiring, no flow.

    Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
    Sure thing. Whatever you say old bitter man. I think he's like you. Just upset that hipster young guys are hitting AA in droves now and have a long and illustrious career ahead. Unlike you two saps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    Sure thing. Whatever you say old bitter man. I think he's like you. Just upset that hipster young guys are hitting AA in droves now and have a long and illustrious career ahead. Unlike you two saps.
    Old and bitter, you say ?

    Man, you're oozing anger and rage. I suspect you've been beating your cat lately. Have you considered therapy and tranquilizers ?

    Your cat will love you again if you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    It can't affect the flow. In case you have amnesia, the flow is contractual.
    Uh yeah, it was contractual on 9/10/2001 also.
    Don't think for one minute that any number of variables can put a halt to the flow.
    You're comical.
    Last edited by Sirsnacksalot; 07-16-2017 at 08:04 PM.

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    I flowed over exactly 10 years after i was suppose to. Flow date March 2003 actual March 2013.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    Terrific. Just another guy that took 20+ to flow and now all he is concerned with is pulling up the ladder and shutting the door in everybody else's face.
    Alrighty then!

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    This place will implode the moment they mess with the flow. The company knows it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by E175ERAUDriver View Post
    This place will implode the moment they mess with the flow. The company knows it.
    The situation described would not be "messing with the flow". In reality, it would be adhering to the contractual stipulations specified in the LOA. You know...........as the usual suspects trumpet so frequently. The contract that they so frequently wave around requires new-hire classes for Envoy flow. They temporarily stop new-hire classes, then Envoy no flowee. Also in reality, Envoy management would not make that call, their bosses at AAG would as AAG calls the shots in that regard. Under such a situation they could flow some pilots, but it would be at AAG's discretion. Again, hopefully a flow delay won't happen.

    As for Envoy "imploding" should a temporary suspension of the flow for this unanticipated situation occur, that won't happen either. A mass exodus won't occur and they know that. Sure, there will be a bit of grumbling and a dented garbage can or two in some of the crew rooms, but they know pilots won't be fleeing to Mesa, Silver or Lowe's over this. If anything implodes, it will be the already perilous psychiatric condition of a couple of the usual suspects and likely one poor cat will be packing up his catnip and fancy feast and heading over to live under the neighbors deck. They know most pilots here will suckle the Envoy nipple until another legacy or decent LCC or premier freight outfit blows them a kiss. Absent that, most here will do their time until their parole to AA or flop over in the process.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 07-16-2017 at 10:02 PM.

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