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Thread: Class Drop - 07/03/17

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    Ask for me too. Those dickbags won't even send me the "F-you a-hole! ALL swaps denied due to our pathetic ability to properly staff this dump. Enjoy flowing from your ****ty RSV line!"

    Or something similar to that...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turboprop View Post
    Millennials with a sense of entitlement. Had a new hire with 300 hours at the company. Tell me he deserved to be a Captain already. It was owed to him because he had done the work to get hired. Sorry bitch you have to earn it.
    Granted, you have to pass the checkride... but since when are upgrades merit-based? All you need to do is wait around for your number to come up... just a matter of patience lol.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancakes View Post
    Granted, you have to pass the checkride... but since when are upgrades merit-based? All you need to do is wait around for your number to come up... just a matter of patience lol.
    True, it's all merit based and there are more than a few guys that upgrade that don't deserve it. I don't think the problem with many of our newer FOs is an issue of "earning" an upgrade. The problem is the huge wave of snot nose, cocky little millennials that think they know everything, think they know better than the guy in the left seat with years and years of experience, and have an out of this world sense of entitlement. This is an especially rampant problem with many of the FOs that were hired between late spring and summer of last year that would only come to work here if they were guaranteed a slot on the 175.

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    I am about to enter upgrade training and hitting the line in September, I wonder if the bad attitude FOs are more obnoxious to older captains with whom they have very little in common, or if they're going to have a garbage attitude with everybody.

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    Quote Originally Posted by copycopy View Post
    I am about to enter upgrade training and hitting the line in September, I wonder if the bad attitude FOs are more obnoxious to older captains with whom they have very little in common, or if they're going to have a garbage attitude with everybody.
    Nope...young captains bitch about these guys just as much as the older ones. Talked to a new 175 CA the other day in his mid 30s. He can't believe the attitude of some of these newer guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
    Nope...young captains bitch about these guys just as much as the older ones. Talked to a new 175 CA the other day in his mid 30s. He can't believe the attitude of some of these newer guys.
    I can't blame some of those new-hires for using leverage in agreeing to come to Envoy. Many got what they wanted, that being the E-175. One of the factors that gave them that leverage was the lack thereof by Envoy ALPA in bending over backward to solve the company's new-hire staffing conundrum. The flip-side of doing that with either agreeing to all the bonuses and support and/or looking the other way in other areas is the stripping of leverage from themselves and thereby from the rest of the tenured non new-hire pilots.

    There's no free ride, but obviously most don't want to jeopardize their own flows, so the practice of being enablers will likely continue. As far as the attitude issues, hearing these complaints makes it sound like maybe the only way they can put up the new-hire numbers (for now) that they are is taking some they might not have 5 years ago.

    Any idea of the average IOE times and new-hire washout rates ?
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 07-05-2017 at 06:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    I can't blame some of those new-hires for using leverage in agreeing to come to Envoy. Many got what they wanted, that being the E-175. One of the factors that gave them that leverage was the lack thereof by Envoy ALPA in bending over backward to solve the company's new-hire staffing conundrum. The flip-side of doing that with either agreeing to all the bonuses and support and/or looking the other way in other areas is the stripping of leverage from themselves and thereby from the rest of the tenured non new-hire pilots.

    There's no free ride, but obviously most don't want to jeopardize their own flows, so the practice of being enablers will continue. As far as the attitude issues, hearing these complaints makes it sound like maybe the only way they can put up the new-hire numbers (for now) that they are is taking some they might not have 5 years ago.

    Any idea of the average IOE times and new-hire washout rates ?
    I've spoken with instructors and pilot planners about that. Washout rates aren't really above what they have been in the past. However, it sounds like extra training is up vs. the past. IOE times are also up. I've heard of guys needing 75+ hours. One guy made it to 100 hours before they cut him loose. Bottom line, wash outs aren't necessarily on the rise, but the training department is FAR busier putting in extra work trying to get guys to a point where they can be sent out to fly the line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
    I've spoken with instructors and pilot planners about that. Washout rates aren't really above what they have been in the past. However, it sounds like extra training is up vs. the past. IOE times are also up. I've heard of guys needing 75+ hours. One guy made it to 100 hours before they cut him loose. Bottom line, wash outs aren't necessarily on the rise, but the training department is FAR busier putting in extra work trying to get guys to a point where they can be sent out to fly the line.
    Interesting. Not surprising though since the new-hire pay rates have drawn in a lot of older "second-career" pilots with little or no past professional flying experience, but at least 1500 hours TT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
    True, it's all merit based and there are more than a few guys that upgrade that don't deserve it. I don't think the problem with many of our newer FOs is an issue of "earning" an upgrade. The problem is the huge wave of snot nose, cocky little millennials that think they know everything, think they know better than the guy in the left seat with years and years of experience, and have an out of this world sense of entitlement. This is an especially rampant problem with many of the FOs that were hired between late spring and summer of last year that would only come to work here if they were guaranteed a slot on the 175.
    We had a good article in our safety publication about this. Professionalism is becoming an issue with the current generation of new pilots. Simple things like looking someone in the eye, a firm handshake, respect for someone with more experience, etc. are lacking. Professionalism is essential in the cockpit and it doesn't just mean technical knowledge and piloting skills. Interpersonal relationships, and working well with others are just as critical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Interesting. Not surprising though since the new-hire pay rates have drawn in a lot of older "second-career" pilots with little or no past professional flying experience, but at least 1500 hours TT.
    Yes, the second career types that have had little to no recent experience have lots of trouble.

    Quote Originally Posted by 360DD View Post
    We had a good article in our safety publication about this. Professionalism is becoming an issue with the current generation of new pilots. Simple things like looking someone in the eye, a firm handshake, respect for someone with more experience, etc. are lacking. Professionalism is essential in the cockpit and it doesn't just mean technical knowledge and piloting skills. Interpersonal relationships, and working well with others are just as critical.
    Truly sad and shameful.

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    I was thinking that professionalism has a positive impact on the technical skills also. Somewhat like having the answer to a question without knowing the reason why it has that answer. I certainly can spit off every thing in the book and fly miraculously but if I can't even call upon my past experiences and my commanded respect of my crew to facilitate a well thought out series of actions,then I have proved nothing to anyone about my abilities as a crew member technically and professionally. Alas we are in unprecedented times of inexperienced ...I don't put them down for where they are at professionally nor do I pull the 'back in my day crap'. That being said...as captains we are still teachers. Set the pace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 360DD View Post
    We had a good article in our safety publication about this. Professionalism is becoming an issue with the current generation of new pilots. Simple things like looking someone in the eye, a firm handshake, respect for someone with more experience, etc. are lacking. Professionalism is essential in the cockpit and it doesn't just mean technical knowledge and piloting skills. Interpersonal relationships, and working well with others are just as critical.
    To clarify, it wasn't about new hires at AA but rather new hires to the industry. The overall article was about professionalism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
    I know that rumor is making the rounds right now. Although, no plans of that happening in the near future. Maybe eventually.
    Hearing otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xpanterica View Post
    Hearing otherwise.
    Actually, as a couple of days ago I am as well. I was wrong. Take note Dacuj, it's okay to admit when you're wrong about something.

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    A buddy of mine is currently in Paris for training! Not to bad.

    Better than STL at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by E175ERAUDriver View Post
    A buddy of mine is currently in Paris for training! Not to bad.

    Better than STL at least.
    Oh snap! E175 Driver has made his debut on TalkAirline! Entertainment value of this forum just keeps increasing. Welcome, I know you will not disappoint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
    Oh snap! E175 Driver has made his debut on TalkAirline! Entertainment value of this forum just keeps increasing. Welcome, I know you will not disappoint.
    With that screen name and two stellar posts I'd say he's a little obvious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xpanterica View Post
    Hearing otherwise.
    You are correct. 4 classes per month now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
    Oh snap! E175 Driver has made his debut on TalkAirline! Entertainment value of this forum just keeps increasing. Welcome, I know you will not disappoint.
    It's a party!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DolphinsFan View Post
    You are correct. 4 classes per month now.
    great, that means 6 month wait for the sim and another 2 months for ioe. roughly 10 months from first day of class to finish all training to become able to contribute to the daily glory of envoy.
    Sir, can I have another.

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