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Thread: Celebrating Charlie Bucket?

  1. #21
    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    I guess letter 3/supp c was not written in black and white in our contract.

    Why don't your friends fix the QOL issues here at envoy, get better schedules, better pay and benefits.

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    Registered User Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    The claim was that Envoy and American are the same company, which they most certainly are not. Separate airlines, separate pilot groups, separate CBA's. No, APA does not control who AA hires and yes, the Envoy CBA does have provisions of how and when Envoy pilots are eligible to become AA new-hires. The important point to remember is that a contractual provision is not the same as a guarantee. Let's face it, Envoy and its predecessor American Eagle, Inc. has proven that repeatedly past and present.
    I don't disagree with that.
    ___________________________________

  3. #23
    Registered User Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Oh boy. Here we go again. Do I constantly have to remind you that a contractual provision IS a guarantee?
    There are so many ways for a contract to become worthless that it isn't even worth debating. However, I do not see any of them even being considered without another external catastrophic event; so I consider the flow reasonably safe.

    You do need to stop selling this we are AA pilots crap. it is not true. It makes your other true statements harder to believe since you keep pushing the false ones.

    Envoy is a good choice for a newbie entering the profession. There are certainly much worse places to be.

    I'm currently enjoying being based at home, flying good equipment with an excellent MX program, and more importantly a management team that really gets it. Example, my sons birthday is next month. The day is already blocked in the calendar as OFF and the lines haven't even been built yet. They have no idea yet what staffing they will have that day, or what schedules will even look like; yet the day off has been on there since mid-May when I asked for it. None of this submit the request and wait until the day before for the denial due to staffing email. So, yes it really can be done without being so adversarial all the time.
    Last edited by Cujo665; 07-06-2017 at 08:38 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Everyone knows that you are an anti-company cheerleader. What I can't figure out is why people who ACTUALLY WORK HERE have bought into this anti-company rhetoric that you are constantly spewing. They have the most to gain, read: flow, but are ardent in their anti company diatribe that you promote. And the flow is FAR, FAR and away ONE HUNDRED times better than it was in your old "American Eagle" days. It's actually written in the contract in black and white now. Not just something that you may or may not get when your upgrade comes up.
    Way too many flat spots on your cantaloupe.

    I am not "anti-company", I'm PRO-PILOT. In your drooling state of rabid paranoia and delusion, you obviously can't tell the difference and conflate the two concepts. In reality, we both know that's in large part because YOU are ANTI-PILOT, but like a wolf in sheeps clothing you claim to be other then what you really are. I know it frustrates you most here are smart enough to see your cute, furry jacket, but still recognize your long whiskered snout and are having none of it. Anyhoo, those two concepts CAN be mutually exclusive, you know. I'm feeling benevolent today so I'll grant you a boon by agreeing that the present flow is indeed better in some ways then the old flow of Letter 3 (Supplement W over at AA), at least insofar as present movement and yes as long as no impediments occur, it should continue, but "in some ways" and "as long as no impediments occur", have to be acknowledged.

    Unlike the present flow, the old flow actually placed pilots on the AA seniority list while serving lock-ins as opposed to being just an offer of future new-hire employment with no definition. Guess what ? Even with that definition of accruing seniority at AA there was no guarantee as other parties attempted to nullify that requiring arbitration. It failed, but what DID succeed was that little thing called an "impediment", that being 9/11 resulting in over a decade of delay for many. History repeats itself, my misguided friend and this being a historically reliable cyclical industry, there are multiple potential obstacles out there that could throw your "guarantee" into the hopper once again. North Korea is but one example.

    For your own emotional health (if any remains), I'd start rounding out some of those flat spots of delusional fantasy so as not to suffer a complete and total crack-up should that occur. In the age of smart phones, it wouldn't look too good if You Tube was littered with videos of you being led from your cubicle in a Straight Jacket babbling incoherently about bearded rainbows, pink elephants and that damn beagleboy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    There are so many ways for a contract to become worthless that it isn't even worth debating. However, I do not see any of them even being considered without another external catastrophic event; so I consider the flow reasonably safe.

    Not only is it safe, it's ironclad. None of this "reasonably" safe BS.

    You do need to stop selling this we are AA pilots crap. it is not true. It makes your other true statements harder to believe since you keep pushing the false ones.

    Hmmm. I seem to recall your pontificating on this subject, among many others, in a Yoda-esque manner for quite some time. The fact is that flow is in our contract, we fly AA registered aircraft, we co-base with AA at four bases now with more to come, our uniforms are exactly the same. I could go on.


    Envoy is a good choice for a newbie entering the profession. There are certainly much worse places to be.

    Yes, the only choice really if you want a career at AA.

    I'm currently enjoying being based at home, flying good equipment with an excellent MX program, and more importantly a management team that really gets it. Example, my sons birthday is next month. The day is already blocked in the calendar as OFF and the lines haven't even been built yet. They have no idea yet what staffing they will have that day, or what schedules will even look like; yet the day off has been on there since mid-May when I asked for it. None of this submit the request and wait until the day before for the denial due to staffing email. So, yes it really can be done without being so adversarial all the time.
    With all of the above said, I hope that you are able to get back soon and flow.

  6. #26
    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    You know, your correct. I am an aa pilot. You know how i know. Because at aa the pilot lounge rooms are plush, all mahogony wood, free WiFi, crew meals, no crew trackers in the pilot lounge room and the pilot lounge room JUST for the pilots, like envoy. I only have to share the pilot lounge room with the mice and rats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    With all of the above said, I hope that you are able to get back soon and flow.
    Atta Boy.........................stand your ground !

    Don't let the angry, jealous old men, washed up flow-thru's or Envoy hater's hold you back. In fact, I want you to get up out of your chair, walk down the hall to the nearest window, open it and scream......

    I'M AS MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANY LONGER !!!

    I think you'll feel much better if you do.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 07-06-2017 at 07:28 PM.

  8. #28
    Registered User No Tuna In Cockpit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Atta Boy.........................stand your ground !

    Don't let the angry, jealous old men, washed up flow-thru's or Envoy hater's hold you back. In fact, I want you to get up out of your chair, walk down the hall to the nearest window, open it and scream......

    I'M AS MAD A HELL AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANY LONGER !!!

    I think you'll feel much better if you do.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yZE1GGQmTY

  9. #29
    Registered User Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    With all of the above said, I hope that you are able to get back soon and flow.
    Ironclad? stop dreaming. There are many ways it could stop. I'll throw you a bone with two easy ones.
    1.) AA stops hiring for whatever reason (say another 9-11 or worse)
    2.) Envoy ceases to exist

    in either case, the ironclad contract language would be worthless

    We are not AA pilots. I don't care how your uniform looks (and the insignia are different by the way). Looking like something doesn't make you anything more than cheap knock-off. I could go on.

    Envoy is a good choice for a new pilot; but stop trying to make it more than it is.
    ___________________________________

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    Ironclad? stop dreaming. There are many ways it could stop. I'll throw you a bone with two easy ones.
    1.) AA stops hiring for whatever reason (say another 9-11 or worse)
    2.) Envoy ceases to exist

    in either case, the ironclad contract language would be worthless

    We are not AA pilots. I don't care how your uniform looks (and the insignia are different by the way). Looking like something doesn't make you anything more than cheap knock-off. I could go on.

    Envoy is a good choice for a new pilot; but stop trying to make it more than it is.
    Have you seen the retirement numbers for AA? They are the highest of all the majors. No chance. ZERO chance of them stopping hiring. Economic or catastophic event included. Still ZERO.

    Envoy cease to exist? I can't stop laughing. AA needs Envoy for feed. In case you are disconnected from the industry, I'll give you a hint. Hiring times are a bit different than say ten years ago. Besides, Envoy is the primary wholly owned carrier for American Airlines and there is no way Envoy will "cease to exist." I seem to remember some hard charging from YOU on this exact subject in the past.

    If an Envoy pilot isn't an AA pilot, then why is there no interview and just a departmental transfer when you flow? Why are AA standards applied when Envoy hires said pilot? Why do we fly AA registered aircraft? Why did AA give Envoy the 175's out of the three WOs? Why do we have the SAME exact flight benefits that a 20 year 777 captain has? In fact, we can beat him out for a seat depending on when we check in. Why do we have the same type training program as AA? Why do we have bases in DFW, MIA, LGA and ORD, AA's strongest bases?

    I'm sorry. I'm going to STRONGLY disagree with you. Envoy pilots are hired as AA pilots. That's a FACT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Have you seen the retirement numbers for AA? They are the highest of all the majors. No chance. ZERO chance of them stopping hiring. Economic or catastophic event included. Still ZERO.
    With this philosophy, you should be winning your states lottery every time you play. NO ONE can claim the certainties you do with the exception of someone in denial, delusional or a mixture of both. The traditional "furlough fodder" zone was generally about 15% of any pilot group when unforeseen occurrences necessitate one. But, yes with AA's retirements, furloughs are highly unlikely in all but the most dire circumstances. But 15% of 15,000 pilots at AA is 2200 pilots. There are plenty of less dire situations that could result in AA suspending hiring for a period of time. About 1600 AA pilots are slated to retire over the next 2.5 years and that's only 10% of the group, so significant period of cessation of hiring could easily occur under the right circumstances. Remember, AA is carrying a stunning amount of debt and is far more vulnerable then its competition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Envoy cease to exist? I can't stop laughing. AA needs Envoy for feed. In case you are disconnected from the industry, I'll give you a hint. Hiring times are a bit different than say ten years ago. Besides, Envoy is the primary wholly owned carrier for American Airlines and there is no way Envoy will "cease to exist." I seem to remember some hard charging from YOU on this exact subject in the past.
    "Cease to exist" isn't just about liquidation. Envoy could easily be the subject of consolidation with other WO's resulting in contract renegotiation and SLI, both of which could be significant components in dilution of present projected flow times for present Envoy pilots. AAG could even spin off Envoy to non-owned status for other reasons including a new role and fleet changes. A wide range of future possibilities exist for Envoy in this regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    If an Envoy pilot isn't an AA pilot, then why is there no interview and just a departmental transfer when you flow? Why are AA standards applied when Envoy hires said pilot? Why do we fly AA registered aircraft? Why did AA give Envoy the 175's out of the three WOs? Why do we have the SAME exact flight benefits that a 20 year 777 captain has? In fact, we can beat him out for a seat depending on when we check in. Why do we have the same type training program as AA? Why do we have bases in DFW, MIA, LGA and ORD, AA's strongest bases?
    All these components are simply business decisions to streamline Envoy's costs and the cost of transitioning present Envoy pilots to another airline they presently do not work for, that being American Airlines. "Seamless" service between legacy carriers and their regional network carriers, whether owned or not has been the M.O. for decades and part of that seamlessness involves operations and employees

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    I'm sorry. I'm going to STRONGLY disagree with you. Envoy pilots are hired as AA pilots. That's a FACT.
    You are confusing Envoy recruitments marketing tool sold to prospective pilots to attract them to Envoy with what is truly fact. Hey, I don't blame you as that's your job, but just because some applicants by this schtick (which predates you by decades) doesn't mean those of us who know better must.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 07-07-2017 at 01:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    With this philosophy, you should be winning your states lottery every time you play. NO ONE can claim the certainties you do with the exception of someone in denial, delusional or a mixture of both. The traditional "furlough fodder" zone was generally about 15% of any pilot group when unforeseen occurrences necessitate one. But, yes with AA's retirements, furloughs are highly unlikely in all but the most dire circumstances. But 15% of 15,000 pilots at AA is 2200 pilots. There are plenty of less dire situations that could result in AA suspending hiring for a period of time. About 1600 AA pilots are slated to retire over the next 2.5 years and that's only 10% of the group, so significant period of cessation of hiring could easily occur under the right circumstances. Remember, AA is carrying a stunning amount of debt and is far more vulnerable then its competition.



    "Cease to exist" isn't just about liquidation. Envoy could easily be the subject of consolidation with other WO's resulting in contract renegotiation and SLI, both of which could be significant components in dilution of present projected flow times for present Envoy pilots. AAG could even spin off Envoy to non-owned status for other reasons including a new role and fleet changes. A wide range of future possibilities exist for Envoy in this regard.



    All these components are simply business decisions to streamline Envoy's costs and the cost of transitioning present Envoy pilots to another airline they presently do not work for, that being American Airlines. "Seamless" service between legacy carriers and their regional network carriers, whether owned or not has been the M.O. for decades and part of that seamlessness involves operations and employees



    You are confusing Envoy recruitments marketing tool sold to prospective pilots to attract them to Envoy with what is truly fact. Hey, I don't blame you as that's your job, but just because some applicants by this schtick (which predates you by decades) doesn't mean those of us who know better must.
    OH MY GAWWD! Do you ever tire of your own incessant ramblings? I also forgot to mention. Do you know what type of lanyards Envoy hands out to new hires on day 1? Yep, you guessed it. American Airlines lanyards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    OH MY GAWWD! Do you ever tire of your own incessant ramblings? I also forgot to mention. Do you know what type of lanyards Envoy hands out to new hires on day 1? Yep, you guessed it. American Airlines lanyards.
    I.D. Lanyard's ? I mean really...........................I.D. Lanyard's ?

    THAT is your rebuttal ?

    I guess then if Envoy handed out Delta lanyards, Envoy pilots would be Delta pilots. I'm sorry, but that's nothing more then another marketing tool to convince people of something. Son, that's been an old tactic for decades. In fact, it even has a definition; It's referred to in Anti-Union circles as MANAGING EXPECTATIONS.

    That's ALL you are attempting to do here, which is fine, but those of us who know better simply aren't buying such B.S. Envoy pilots ARE NOT American Airlines pilots. They are Envoy Airlines pilots whose current CBA has a provision that provides for transfer AS A NEW-HIRE to another subsidiary of the parent corporation under the right circumstances and no guarantees could be made as no one can predict the future. That's it.

    Chalk up another flat spot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    OH MY GAWWD! Do you ever tire of your own incessant ramblings? I also forgot to mention. Do you know what type of lanyards Envoy hands out to new hires on day 1? Yep, you guessed it. American Airlines lanyards.
    Hey-Zeus tapdancing Christo on a pogostick, I can't breathe! I haven't laughed this hard in I don't know how long! Please, please never leave!
    Who needs EL when we've got entertainment like this?!
    Lanyards he says! LOL!
    Warlord of the crewroom.

  15. #35
    Registered User Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Have you seen the retirement numbers for AA? They are the highest of all the majors. No chance. ZERO chance of them stopping hiring. Economic or catastophic event included. Still ZERO.

    Envoy cease to exist? I can't stop laughing. AA needs Envoy for feed. In case you are disconnected from the industry, I'll give you a hint. Hiring times are a bit different than say ten years ago. Besides, Envoy is the primary wholly owned carrier for American Airlines and there is no way Envoy will "cease to exist." I seem to remember some hard charging from YOU on this exact subject in the past.

    If an Envoy pilot isn't an AA pilot, then why is there no interview and just a departmental transfer when you flow? Why are AA standards applied when Envoy hires said pilot? Why do we fly AA registered aircraft? Why did AA give Envoy the 175's out of the three WOs? Why do we have the SAME exact flight benefits that a 20 year 777 captain has? In fact, we can beat him out for a seat depending on when we check in. Why do we have the same type training program as AA? Why do we have bases in DFW, MIA, LGA and ORD, AA's strongest bases?

    I'm sorry. I'm going to STRONGLY disagree with you. Envoy pilots are hired as AA pilots. That's a FACT.
    It is pointless to argue with a person as Delusional as you obviously are.

    I don't disagree that the Envoy deal is the best one going right now; but stop trying to make it more than it is.
    Last edited by Cujo665; 07-07-2017 at 02:34 PM.
    ___________________________________

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    It is pointless to argue with a person as Delusional as you obviously are.

    I don't disagree that the Envoy deal is the best one going right now; but stop trying to make it more than it is.
    Amen

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    Where can I get my AA 787 CA lanyard?

    It's ok. I'm entitled to that status.

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    I know that lanyards are the gold standard in employment verification but do they even make Envoy or Eagle lanyards?
    Last edited by 360DD; 07-07-2017 at 06:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 360DD View Post
    I know that lanyards are the gold standard in employment verification but do they even make Envoy or Eagle lanyards?
    Seeing as we're required to wear AA lanyards as part of our uniform, I doubt it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
    Seeing as we're required to wear AA lanyards as part of our uniform, I doubt it.
    You are making my case. Exactly. They wouldn't require you to wear an AA lanyard if you weren't an AAG employee. Do you see RAH or Mesa pilots wearing AA lanyards. I didn't think so.

    Goes back to AAG owns AA and Envoy equally. They need feed and Envoy provides that. You are hired as an AA pilot on Day ONE.

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