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  1. #21
    Registered User 360DD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Stop twisting the facts! It's here right now for those hired today.
    Pretty funny. You say "stop twisting the facts" and then in your next sentence you twist the facts.

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    They are unable to pull the lever later. Protected Pilots is a one time shot. Anyone above the most junior guy selected doesn't get another bite at the apple. Unless they are currently seat locked.

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    you sure about that/ no sarcasm. i dont recall reading that fact anywhere. i hope you are right, oh do i hope your right. too many chances to flow. btw my shift key is broken, so nobody give me **** about lack of capital letters or the missing question mark

  4. #24
    Registered User schmuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdflyer View Post
    They are unable to pull the lever later. Protected Pilots is a one time shot. Anyone above the most junior guy selected doesn't get another bite at the apple. Unless they are currently seat locked.
    Incorrect

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    My understanding is, it starts at the number 1 guy every selection.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdflyer View Post
    They are unable to pull the lever later. Protected Pilots is a one time shot. Anyone above the most junior guy selected doesn't get another bite at the apple. Unless they are currently seat locked.
    I understood that once PPs hit, the list started at the top for EVERY selection, so you can pass as many times as you want, then decide to go later. I could be wrong; I don't have the exact text sitting in front of me -- but I think what you are referring to is how 824s were selected. Hopefully someone can provide some clarification on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdflyer View Post
    They are unable to pull the lever later. Protected Pilots is a one time shot. Anyone above the most junior guy selected doesn't get another bite at the apple. Unless they are currently seat locked.
    I heard differently from the union as well.
    I've never seen it in writing either way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
    Nope. You're the one twisting facts. 5 year flow isn't here for someone hired today either. Please provide any data to prove otherwise. The data I'm looking at from ALPA that's based on those pesky things called contract language and math say that someone hired today will flow in 8ish years. Maybe you're basing your numbers on the 40/month that according to you we were going to start sending to AA back in January. Refresh my memory, how many months have we been sending 40 now?
    Have you ever heard of true up? It's required by the contract you know. I'm not the only one that was calling 40/mo. Some of our recruiters were calling the exact same thing on APC at the same time I brought it up here. Guess what? With the new hire numbers we've been getting, 40/mo in the future is absolutely in the realm of possibility. Take a look at the first PP flows. 30. Yes, thirty. Above the required minimum.

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    Registered User No Tuna In Cockpit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Take a look at the first PP flows. 30. Yes, thirty. Above the required minimum.
    Adding to the pool and actually flowing are two VERY different things. As I mentioned earlier, they are refilling the pool since it was nearly empty from the 824s. That's the only way they could get the minimum contractual amount for the first class in July -- had they not selected 30, there wouldn't be enough time for people to do PRIA and other paperwork for the July class. They will put 15 in the 2nd June class (which in addition to the 10 824s in the first June class equals 25), and 12-13 in the first July class. We will not be flowing more than 25 in July.
    Last edited by No Tuna In Cockpit; 05-13-2017 at 06:58 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Have you ever heard of true up? It's required by the contract you know. I'm not the only one that was calling 40/mo. Some of our recruiters were calling the exact same thing on APC at the same time I brought it up here. Guess what? With the new hire numbers we've been getting, 40/mo in the future is absolutely in the realm of possibility. Take a look at the first PP flows. 30. Yes, thirty. Above the required minimum.
    You mean the new hires that are recruiters for envoy
    Sir, can I have another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by No Tuna In Cockpit View Post
    Adding to the pool and actually flowing are two VERY different things. As I mentioned earlier, they are refilling the pool since it was nearly empty from the 824s. That's the only way they could get the minimum contractual amount for the first class in July -- had they not selected 30, there wouldn't be enough time for people to do PRIA and other paperwork for the July class. They will put 15 in the 2nd June class (which in addition to the 10 824s in the first June class equals 25), and 12-13 in the first July class. We will not be flowing more than 25 in July.
    I think most of us can agree he has demonstrated no more credibility drunk then he has sober...........or hungover, for that matter.

  12. #32
    Registered User schmuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Have you ever heard of true up? It's required by the contract you know.
    After the 824, it most certainly is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    With the new hire numbers we've been getting, 40/mo in the future is absolutely in the realm of possibility.
    No it's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Take a look at the first PP flows. 30. Yes, thirty. Above the required minimum.
    I see the PP list. They selected 30 to go into the pool. Cool. They didn't do a single thing above the required minimum. The required minimum is for them to actually flow 25 a month. But if you think they're going to actually send 30 in a month, you're smoking crack. Word on the street is they probably won't even hit 25 during these summer months.

  13. #33
    Registered User 360DD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post

    I see the PP list. They selected 30 to go into the pool. Cool. They didn't do a single thing above the required minimum. The required minimum is for them to actually flow 25 a month. But if you think they're going to actually send 30 in a month, you're smoking crack. Word on the street is they probably won't even hit 25 during these summer months.
    It should be very simple to do the math but apparently I am no good at math. How many pilots currently at Envoy? At 25 flows a month, 300 a year, if a new hire today has a seniority number much higher than 1500 he won't flow in 5 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 360DD View Post
    It should be very simple to do the math but apparently I am no good at math. How many pilots currently at Envoy? At 25 flows a month, 300 a year, if a new hire today has a seniority number much higher than 1500 he won't flow in 5 years.
    And keep in mind, that the flow only slows down. After the PP group it drops to 15/month. But my pal Dacuj seems to think that because upgrade time is coming down and because we've been filling new hire classes that the flow is somehow going to accelerate so dramatically above contractual requirements that the flow time will eventually hit 5 years. His track record has been stellar so far- flowing 40/month beginning in January, LAX growing legs, and now supposedly they are going above the minimum and sending 30 PP/month based off yesterday's selection. Well, we'll obviously find out soon enough how many PPs they ACTUALLY flow in the coming months. Hint...it ain't gonna be above 25. And I'd be surprised if we even see 25 some months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
    And keep in mind, that the flow only slows down. After the PP group it drops to 15/month. But my pal Dacuj seems to think that because upgrade time is coming down and because we've been filling new hire classes that the flow is somehow going to accelerate so dramatically above contractual requirements that the flow time will eventually hit 5 years. His track record has been stellar so far- flowing 40/month beginning in January, LAX growing legs, and now supposedly they are going above the minimum and sending 30 PP/month based off yesterday's selection. Well, we'll obviously find out soon enough how many PPs they ACTUALLY flow in the coming months. Hint...it ain't gonna be above 25. And I'd be surprised if we even see 25 some months.
    Congratulations and welcome to the Envoy Haters Club. Maybe you really don't want to go to American.

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    Yes there it is, the flow above all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    Congratulations and welcome to the Envoy Haters Club. Maybe you really don't want to go to American.
    Actually. I dont want to go to AA. I would prefer FedEx Delta or united.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    Congratulations and welcome to the Envoy Haters Club. Maybe you really don't want to go to American.
    I didn't realize stating facts made someone a hater. That wasn't even a negative post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Have you ever heard of true up? It's required by the contract you know. I'm not the only one that was calling 40/mo. Some of our recruiters were calling the exact same thing on APC at the same time I brought it up here. Guess what? With the new hire numbers we've been getting, 40/mo in the future is absolutely in the realm of possibility. Take a look at the first PP flows. 30. Yes, thirty. Above the required minimum.
    This company is a habitual contract breaker...pilots leaving is not in their interest....i will be surprised if it is a full 25....im going with 22 here 18 some months...if im wrong..im wrong...but this place doesnt do anything for pilots unless masta says so...

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    Congratulations and welcome to the Envoy Haters Club. Maybe you really don't want to go to American.
    What an asinine statement. Because I speak facts and refuse to go along with the ludicrous flow time that Dacuj tries to spout, I don't want to go to AA huh? Dacuj coming on here and telling us that a new hire is projected to flow in 5 years is quite frankly an insult to our intelligence. I'm happy to listen to any FACTS that he has to back up that claim; and I've asked him countless time to give us data to support these outrageous claims. Do you really expect us to just go with any numbers he pulls out of his ass that contradicts what solid data states? I believe I said in a prior post that the ALPA numbers how an 8 year flow. After double checking the list, I was incorrect. It's not 8 years, it's 7 years. Still quite a jump from the Dacuj proclamation of 5 years. The ALPA numbers are based on flowing a certain number of pilots per month per the contract. The only response he could muster after countless queries from me as to how he arrives at a 5 year flow was, "Have you ever heard of true up? It's required by the contract you know." Yes, Dacuj ol' boy, I have heard of true up. After the true up in June for the remainder of the 824, there is no more true up. Nice try, I'll be waiting for you to provide some other ridiculous formula for how you come up with a 5 year flow.

    And just for the record, I don't hate Envoy. Not at all. There are numerous things that need to be improved in the QOL department, but I don't have an ounce of regret for coming here. But what I do despise is you and Dacuj coming on here, not acknowledging a single negative issue about QOL, and acting like Envoy is a pure utopian paradise with nothing but rainbows and unicorns. All while lying to everyone about an absolutely unrealistic flow time.

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